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Need some help understanding LLC and offset OCing - Page 9

post #81 of 93
The moral of that story is dont buy cheap mobos tongue.gif

Even the anandtech article is saying same thing I am regarding overshoot magnitude, quote from it:
Quote:
So what happens when we remove both Voffset and Vdroop? The answer is simple - bad things. Although the difference between the maximum positive and negative peak overshoot are the same, severe violations to the CPU VID limit occur.

And again, if you realize bios setting no longer = max overshoot with LLC enabled, I dont see the issue. But on different mobos I have used since that anantech article came out, I have yet to run into the issue that anandtech or you have seen where LLC resulted in need for more vcore at load. And I as well as others tested that theory out, when anandtech article came out years ago. Will have to see it on a mobo I own, before I will worry about it.
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post #82 of 93
I agree with with opt33 except the "moral of that story"..if you can get away without LLC for your OC than don't use it ..as simple as that
P.S. it sounds to me like the other guy is stuck with X58/poking around 4.5Ghz ,the anandtech article is based on old hardware,there are a lot of changes to the power delivery/components since than wink.gif
    
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post #83 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post

The moral of that story is dont buy cheap mobos tongue.gif

I'm not using a cheap mobo, but I wouldn't consider it remotely economical to spend another 50-100 dollars to get a board where LLC doesn't hurt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post

Even the anandtech article is saying same thing I am regarding overshoot magnitude

Which is almost completely beside the point.

Undershoot, relative to where load vcore settles at, is the big downside to LLC. Adding LLC, or more LLC, will raise load vcore, but it won't limit that initial undershoot relative to idle voltage. At the exact same magnitude of over/undershoot, LLC is clearly inferior because it's going to result in a minimum voltage significantly lower than the target full load voltage.

Sure, a good enough VRM might be able to mitigate that, but that point has already been acknowledged. Even with such a VRM, the undershoot, relative to target load voltage, would have even less of a delta with LLC disabled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhandluke41 View Post

P.S. it sounds to me like the other guy is stuck with X58/poking around 4.5Ghz ,the anandtech article is based on old hardware,there are a lot of changes to the power delivery/components since than wink.gif

Intel has only released a single incremental revision to their power delivery guidelines since then, and the board used was pretty high end at the time.

Many boards sold now have inferior VRM components to what was on that Asus P5E3 Deluxe Anandtech used in 2007. Which shouldn't really be surprising, since TDPs haven't increased at all. The Core 2 Quads are 130w processors.
Edited by Blameless - 5/13/12 at 3:20pm
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post #84 of 93
we will just have to agree to disagree, arguing same points over and over gets old after awhile. you keep avoiding LLC and I will keep using it, both be happy.
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post #85 of 93
Thread Starter 
Personally, I had to have LLC on 75% to keep my OC stable. I think it all depends on the chip, none are the same. And my motherboard isn't cheap, it's the P8Z77-V Pro. Sure, not terribly expensive, but definitely not cheap.
post #86 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post

Personally, I had to have LLC on 75% to keep my OC stable. I think it all depends on the chip, none are the same. And my motherboard isn't cheap, it's the P8Z77-V Pro. Sure, not terribly expensive, but definitely not cheap.

I have to do the exact same thing with my LLC setting. If I put it any lower, I had to bump the offset up waaaay too much for my comfort. I would run at 1.27ish in prime95, but over 1.3v for other less intense applications, and I just didn't want to do that.
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post #87 of 93
Over at xtremesystems, I asked Raja@ASUS about optimal LLC; here is his reply:

"As for LLC: I find 50% to be optimal from a thermal perspective. Full load voltages should be around the same (close) regardless of which LLC level you choose, while idle VID will need adjustment to ensure that the target VCC is adequate under full load. Technically, higher levels of LLC require a faster switching frequency and/or bulk capacitance to maintain overshoot and undershoot thresholds. While these are all accounted for in the levels we provide, I find myself sticking with a middle of the road approach as it is kinder to components."
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post #88 of 93
Thread Starter 
I tried running at 50% at first, but it wouldn't stay stable. And, he says that LLC doesn't affect load VCore, but that's not what my testing has shown. Regardless, does it HURT to have it higher? I don't see how there's a clear advantage one way or another?
post #89 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post

I tried running at 50% at first, but it wouldn't stay stable. And, he says that LLC doesn't affect load VCore, but that's not what my testing has shown. Regardless, does it HURT to have it higher? I don't see how there's a clear advantage one way or another?

I don't think he was saying higher is bad, just that 50% is optimal in general, as he sees it. His z77 guide says "Some users prefer using higher values, although this will impact overshoot to a small degree." If Vcore were getting near 1.5V, then overshoot could go above the 1.52 VID max. Below that, I'm not seeing how a sub-millisecond of overshoot would cause a problem. I found 75% to be the most user-friendly setting, as it keeps Vcore very stable for all loads. And it's not far from 50%. So far I've not found much difference between 50% and 75%, for Vload, Tload, or stability, so I'll probably leave it at 50%.

But in any case, for the final word, I'd say go with what your tests have shown for your system.
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post #90 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by david82282 View Post

I don't think he was saying higher is bad, just that 50% is optimal in general, as he sees it. His z77 guide says "Some users prefer using higher values, although this will impact overshoot to a small degree." If Vcore were getting near 1.5V, then overshoot could go above the 1.52 VID max. Below that, I'm not seeing how a sub-millisecond of overshoot would cause a problem. I found 75% to be the most user-friendly setting, as it keeps Vcore very stable for all loads. And it's not far from 50%. So far I've not found much difference between 50% and 75%, for Vload, Tload, or stability, so I'll probably leave it at 50%.
But in any case, for the final word, I'd say go with what your tests have shown for your system.

Ah, ok! So LLC basically effects the overvolt and idle volt. I was wondering about that. I mean, I knew it also closed/increased the gap between idle and load depending on which sign you're using, but I didn't know if it affected anything else. Thanks smile.gif +rep for that
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