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post #41 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneerisloud View Post

I've been searching and trying things for the past 4, almost 5 hours now. Transcoding apparently isn't going to work, as I have absolutely zero programs that will READ the DLNA server. sozo.gif
For what its worth, I use playon as my DLNA server.
Did you give subsonic a try? The player is just an embedded flash player and you can set the bit rate of the stream on the client itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironman517 View Post

There is more noise in a wireless connection than a wired connection. More noise = more chance for dropped packets. And since UDP does not care about dropped packets, they will be lost and you will see lag because you didn't receive the data.. I have never had an issue with remote desktop with 2 wired computers, but with wireless I have always had lag... :/
What does UDP have to do with anything? RDP runs over TCP not UDP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beers View Post

I can't stream anything over 720p to my HTPC on wifi when file transfers are around 4-5 MB/sec, and even then sometimes it pauses for a moment at certain places..
100 mbit would still be a lot faster than your wifi that is reporting at '144 mbps' wink.gif
I can stream 1080p over wireless and I don't have a particularly good router either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post

It wouldn't surprise me if it's not as much a bandwidth issue as much as it was a quality of wireless issue (either on the side of the NIC, or the router). I had this POS Belkin wireless router that would cause unbelieveable stuttering during youtube playback--changed routers and the problem went away. Didn't have problems on wired connections, and didn't upgrade the internet connection.
Could be an answer to the problem--could also be something entirely different. smile.gif
The problem is RDP - it wouldn't have any kind of time syncing like traditional multimedia streams would because RDP isn't intended for this kind of purpose. It's also real time (no server and client buffering) so any dropped packets / checksum errors will result in discarded packets rather than re-requesting the data stream (thus using the buffer for uninterrupted playback). RDP is completely the wrong tool for this job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneerisloud View Post

Nope, not bandwidth.
I'm being CPU bottlenecked by the Athlon64 3300+ somehow (possibly GPU bottlenecked as well).
I got curious, so I hooked the machine up wired in my main rig's spot. Played my Harry Potter blu ray (also has troubles) over the VM on it. It'll play fine for about 5 seconds, audio starts to desync, then it goes all screwy (rinse and repeat). During the times that the file was playing fine (for those brief 2-3 seconds or so), the CPU was at 100% load on the local machine.
This makes absolutely zero sense. sozo.gif I'm using RDP for the entire reason of AVOIDING my local hardware. Why is this not working correctly? frown.gif
So yeah, long story short.... using RDP, is resulting in EXACTLY the same performance as trying to play the files back on the slow machine natively. The entire system FEELS snappier though in the RDP, but for some odd reason, WMP is just not playing nicely in RDP, and is using up local resources, when it SHOULD be using the server's resources.
As such....I'm stuck. No idea what I can do now. I can't run XBMC on this machine, its too slow. So I can't access my DLNA server to transcode.
Have you tried using VLC as a DLNA client?

I really do think you should be dropping this whole RDP idea entirely. Either find a DLNA client that doesn't hang on the slower harder or install subsonic because they are purpose built for this type of function. They will have playback buffers, audio/video synchronisation and not additional overhead for unnecessary data (eg window messages being passed to the remote terminal).

If you can't get a dedicated transcoded video stream (eg DLNA, Subsonic, Shoutcast / VLC video feed, etc), then you might as well reformat and install Linux or have multiple qualities for all your movies because nothing else will work. This really is your only option - I cannot stress this enough.

Also, in regards to your comment about AGP GPU acceleration, all AGP cards of the last 10 years will have at least an MPEG decoder chip. I remember my budget (like $50) GeForce 2 MX back in 2001 and MPEG decoder chips had been common place for a while even before then. So the problem isn't with your graphics card, it's simply that RDP is garbage.
Edited by Plan9 - 5/12/12 at 2:39am
post #42 of 69
Thread Starter 
That's what I said earlier man, I have a DLNA server through playon. It works, it transcodes things down just fine. If I could actually use XBMC to read it on this machine, then it would work just fine. However I cannot use XBMC, which is the only program I have found that will read the DLNA server.

If you have any ideas on what programs that I CAN use to access the playon DLNA server, then that could very easily solve my problem. I don't really want to setup multiple DLNA servers, as that will just clutter things that much more in my eyes.

The problem with XBMC on this client rig:
1) Machine is too slow to use XBMC in Windows 7. Just the menu's stutter.
2) Can't use native XBMC Linux because of wireless problems, and I honestly still feel like the machine might be too slow.
3) XBMC lacks one very important thing (yes I've googled it). The ability to play everything in a folder with shuffle and repeat.

The biggest problem is #3. I could care less if it skips a little, its just for our 2 year old. But I need the ability to use a regular media program like WMP or Winamp (or similar), because I need to be able to just set it on repeat and shuffle and be done with it. I don't want to have to go into his room every 20 minutes all night long to make sure it continues playing.

EDIT:
Going to try out Subsonic now, see how that works.
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post #43 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneerisloud View Post

That's what I said earlier man, I have a DLNA server through playon. It works, it transcodes things down just fine. If I could actually use XBMC to read it on this machine, then it would work just fine. However I cannot use XBMC, which is the only program I have found that will read the DLNA server.
If you have any ideas on what programs that I CAN use to access the playon DLNA server, then that could very easily solve my problem.
DLNA is a standard, so one client should work with all servers. If you're having problems with other clients then your server might be pushing out incompatible file types / MIMEs (eg Playon transcoding MKV to a client that only supports MPEG containers). So you'd need to play around with the output on Playon (I cannot help here I'm afraid as I've only used Linux DLNA servers - sorry).
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneerisloud View Post

I don't really want to setup multiple DLNA servers, as that will just clutter things that much more in my eyes.
The problem with XBMC on this client rig:
1) Machine is too slow to use XBMC in Windows 7. Just the menu's stutter.
2) Can't use native XBMC Linux because of wireless problems, and I honestly still feel like the machine might be too slow.
3) XBMC lacks one very important thing (yes I've googled it). The ability to play everything in a folder with shuffle and repeat.
The biggest problem is #3. I could care less if it skips a little, its just for our 2 year old. But I need the ability to use a regular media program like WMP or Winamp (or similar), because I need to be able to just set it on repeat and shuffle and be done with it. I don't want to have to go into his room every 20 minutes all night long to make sure it continues playing.
You may find no DLNA client can do that as DLNA doesn't push out folders - only streams. However give VLC's DLNA client settings a try.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneerisloud View Post

EDIT:
Going to try out Subsonic now, see how that works.
It's a very straightforward set up, but give me a shout if you need any help smile.gif
post #44 of 69
Thread Starter 
I just tried Subsonic, and couldn't for the life of me figure it out.

The problem I'm having with my playon DLNA server (which DOES work, I've used XBMC to play back 1080p on this rig in the past).....is that I can't find a suitable client to read the stream. The only one I've found that works is XBMC, but I cannot use XBMC due to the lack of repeat / shuffle on videos (supposedly the option is there, but its very difficult to find and setup).

So all I "really" need, if I were to use my DLNA server, which does already work fine and well, is a client to read it. I couldn't get VLC to do it (no options for a library even?), Winamp, WMP, nothing. The only one I've personally found that works is XBMC, but again...the problems with XBMC prevent me from using it on this machine.

So its either I find a client to read DLNA and just transcode the media over like I used to do on it with XBMC, or I need a way to use Remote Desktop to watch the video's in that without DLNA. (or similar).
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post #45 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneerisloud View Post

I just tried Subsonic, and couldn't for the life of me figure it out.
Why not? What were you stuck on?
I've personally found Subsonic to be one of the easiest media streamers to use (and I've used a lot!). So I'm quite surprised to hear you were stuck. But as I said before, if you list any problems I'll be hapy to help smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneerisloud View Post

The problem I'm having with my playon DLNA server (which DOES work, I've used XBMC to play back 1080p on this rig in the past).....is that I can't find a suitable client to read the stream. The only one I've found that works is XBMC, but I cannot use XBMC due to the lack of repeat / shuffle on videos (supposedly the option is there, but its very difficult to find and setup).
You create a library and it's very easy to set up. Just right click on the content you want to play and all your library and queueing options are there.
I use these options all the time at house parties (not just me, but all my friends who aren't nerds like me) and we all manage when drunk so it's really not that difficult tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneerisloud View Post

So all I "really" need, if I were to use my DLNA server, which does already work fine and well, is a client to read it. I couldn't get VLC to do it (no options for a library even?), Winamp, WMP, nothing. The only one I've personally found that works is XBMC, but again...the problems with XBMC prevent me from using it on this machine.
So its either I find a client to read DLNA and just transcode the media over like I used to do on it with XBMC, or I need a way to use Remote Desktop to watch the video's in that without DLNA. (or similar).
I don't mean to be rude, but it sounds like you've already resigned yourself to using RDP and not really looked properly at other players because both XBMC's and VLC's library options are very easy yet you've not managed to find either and Subsonic should be as simple as install, login in, set your media paths and you're done. I appreciate that RDP might seem the simple solution but it will never work the way you want it to here because of the reasons I've listed before. So you're really better off investing some time with XBMC and it's library functions or learning a new media server.

Having read through Playon's forum, I doubt any other media player (VLC, WMP, etc) will work because Playon doesn't really expose itself to UPnP in the traditional sense for media streamers (likely due to licensing reasons as I see they have contracts with Hulu et al). So if XBMC cannot play on the slower hardware, then you're stuck with having to educate yourself with a more complicated bit of kit (streaming via VLC, Subsonic, Shoutcast, etc). However you might be able to cheat and use XBMC to play a UPnP stream and then share it (as XBMC has UPnP sharing capabilities) to VLC et al via another computer. It's a horrible kludge and would likely fail to work, but it's another option to try if you can't figure out something more robust.
post #46 of 69
Pio my man, I'm here to try and help save the day.

Have you tried TVersity yet with it's built in transcoding feature? It works flawlessly for me and I was able to tweak the quality to even work on my cell phone over 3G with no stuttering, or have near streaming on local machines.

Another option is configure Windows Media Center on one machine and find an old Xbox 360, even the Arcade version and use it as a Media Extender or just use it to access the TVersity stream directly.
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post #47 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by axipher View Post

Pio my man, I'm here to try and help save the day.
Have you tried TVersity yet with it's built in transcoding feature? It works flawlessly for me and I was able to tweak the quality to even work on my cell phone over 3G with no stuttering, or have near streaming on local machines.
Another option is configure Windows Media Center on one machine and find an old Xbox 360, even the Arcade version and use it as a Media Extender or just use it to access the TVersity stream directly.

Good advice, but I'd already suggested Tversity and was told he didn't want to change his DLNA server.
post #48 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by axipher View Post

Pio my man, I'm here to try and help save the day.
Have you tried TVersity yet with it's built in transcoding feature? It works flawlessly for me and I was able to tweak the quality to even work on my cell phone over 3G with no stuttering, or have near streaming on local machines.
Another option is configure Windows Media Center on one machine and find an old Xbox 360, even the Arcade version and use it as a Media Extender or just use it to access the TVersity stream directly.

Good advice, but I'd already suggested Tversity and was told he didn't want to change his DLNA server.

Hmm, well it's kind of a sticky situation then. So basically he needs to find a program that can stream 1080p signal to the HTPC that needs minimal processing on the client side, but the less processing required means less compression. This is where the wireless link becomes the bottleneck as well as the RAM on the HTPC.

Worst case with absolutely no compression, you're looking at 384.91 MB/s for a 1920 x 1080 x 60 FPS stream with 8-bit color. Link to calculator

Now dropping down to 720p you are still at 165.89 MB/s.

Now that is worst case 0 compression with no other overhead though.



I guess my next recommendation is to run the HTPC at 720p (1366x768) then run remote desktop at that same resolution in full screen and try that.
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post #49 of 69
Well to answer one of your original questions. RDP does use client side rendering (Actually the video is pre-rendered on the server and then post-rendered on the client)

You may want to try VNC, which does not require client side rendering. There are plenty of VNC applications out there, I happen to prefer UltraVNC
post #50 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by axipher View Post

Hmm, well it's kind of a sticky situation then. So basically he needs to find a program that can stream 1080p signal to the HTPC that needs minimal processing on the client side, but the less processing required means less compression. This is where the wireless link becomes the bottleneck as well as the RAM on the HTPC.
Worst case with absolutely no compression, you're looking at 384.91 MB/s for a 1920 x 1080 x 60 FPS stream with 8-bit color. Link to calculator
Now dropping down to 720p you are still at 165.89 MB/s.
Now that is worst case 0 compression with no other overhead though.
I guess my next recommendation is to run the HTPC at 720p (1366x768) then run remote desktop at that same resolution in full screen and try that.
The wireless link isn't the bottleneck, it's the client PC. Also the video will already be compressed, you can't further compress an already compressed video. Transcoding is his only option. I guess he could always run multiple DLNA servers though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nivacs View Post

Well to answer one of your original questions. RDP does use client side rendering (Actually the video is pre-rendered on the server and then post-rendered on the client)
You may want to try VNC, which does not require client side rendering. There are plenty of VNC applications out there, I happen to prefer UltraVNC
VNC is going to perform worse than RDP - not least because you can't change the resolution of it and thus defeating the whole point of this exercise.
[edit]
Also, VNC doesn't even support sound so even everything else wasn't an issue (which it is), his kids would be reduced to watching silent videos.

Transcoding really is the only real time option here. I cannot stress this enough.
Edited by Plan9 - 5/14/12 at 12:13pm
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