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[Video Added + Watercooling Results] Replacing the internal IHS TIM of an i7 3770K - Page 15

post #141 of 298
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post #142 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by iinversion View Post

Considering some soldering irons can hit an upwards of 1000C, I don't think that is a good example, even normal soldering irons hit almost 500C. The CPU will go into thermal throttle at 105C so unless he uses like a 15W soldering iron I don't think the comparison is fair..

It doesn't matter, The point is that metal conducts heat. If the processor is so horrible at transferring heat because of the "die size" and the heatsink is "cool" to the touch (note he said cool, not "warm" not "room temperature" not "isn't very hot" he said "cool") then there would be absolutey zero heat transfer taking place and the CPU would fry. 80 degrees celcius is 176 degrees Fahrenheit. That's not just a "little" bit of heat. So I call hijinks on that claim.
post #143 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

You're joking right? You must be. You can't possibly believe that an intel press release from may of last year, note that I said may of last year before the production run for the commercially released chips had even started, that talks about the design benefits of trigate transistors as what you consider "proof". How that could possibly be considered proof is beyond logical reasoning.
Let's examine your reasoning (called the effect before cause reasoning). If I were to summarize your argument it would go like this: Ivy Bridge CPU's are hotter than Sandy Bridge CPU's. Ivy Bridge CPU's are smaller than Sandy Bridge CPU's. Therefore it's smaller size must be the cause.
I can apply that same principle to everything. I'll give you two examples and let's see how it works out.
Example 1:
John got into his first accident today. John just bought a new car yesterday. Therefore John's new care must be the cause of the accident.
Example 2:
The earth's temperatures are higher today than 2000 years ago. Jesus died 2000 years ago. Therefore Jesus's death is the cause of global warming.
All 3 arguments as you can see take two pieces of information that may or many not be related and without showing any valid proof it makes a difinitive conclusion.
Oh, and as for my proof? Fact 1 - Tri-gate draws more current than a traditional planar transistor (due to increased surface area created by the "fin").
Fact 2 - At high overclocks Ivy Bridge requires even higher voltage than sandy bridge at those same speeds.
Quote:
"3.Ivy Bridge usually runs using a lower operating voltage than Sandy Bridge. But to overclock it way up to 4.9GHz, you have to bump up the voltage. In fact you have to add more voltage to an Ivy Bridge processor than a Sandy Bridge processor to reach that level. Since power consumption is strongly related to operating voltage, this means you're adding more power consumption and heat."

Conclusion - When a CPU that is designed to require lower voltage than it's predecessor is in fact using higher voltage at the same overclocked speeds as it's predecessor the only explanation is that at higher clocks it's suffering from higher voltage leakage than designed and therefore is producing higher heat.
Another fact - at stock speeds Ivy Bridge requires less voltage and produces less heat than Sandy Bridge. If die size were indeed the problem than it wouldn't matter what speed the CPU were operating at, clock for clock it would ALWAYS be higher than a non 22nm chip.

Are you serious? You once again have no links for anything you say, no proof at all, not even a press release from last year.

Ivy bridge requires LESS voltage than Sandy bridge for the same clocks. OF COURSE THERE ARE GOING TO BE GOLDEN CHIPS FOR BOTH. BUT ON AVERAGE, Ivy bridge will require less voltage for the same clock as sandy bridge....you REALLY need to look at some reviews and people here on OCN that have 4.8ghz on less than 1.3v how many SB do you see with less than 1.3v STABLE at 4.8ghz? I've personally never seen one.

Please show some proof besides ONE scenario where a SB chip is lower voltage than an IB chip....

And since they require LESS voltage on average, you would conclude that they are suffering from not being able to dissipate heat effectively.

Taking a look at the ivy bridge stable/suicide club you can see that on average IB requires less voltage on average than SB.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1247869/ivy-bridge-stable-suicide-club-guides-voltages-temps-bios-templates-inc-spreadsheet

There is a 20hr prime stable @ 4.5ghz with 1.092v.....NO SANDY BRIDGE CPU CAN DO THAT. It is pretty safe to say on average, they require less voltage than their SB counterpart, unless of course you can show some sort of proof, which you haven't yet. I at least provide articles written by reputable companies or websites, you have yet to provide one shred of evidence for any of your claims. Please provide some sort of proof other than your own words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

It doesn't matter, The point is that metal conducts heat. If the processor is so horrible at transferring heat because of the "die size" and the heatsink is "cool" to the touch (note he said cool, not "warm" not "room temperature" not "isn't very hot" he said "cool") then there would be absolutey zero heat transfer taking place and the CPU would fry. 80 degrees celcius is 176 degrees Fahrenheit. That's not just a "little" bit of heat. So I call hijinks on that claim.

You do realize that a temperature is not heat, right? "80 degrees celcius is 176 degrees Fahrenheit. That's not just a "little" bit of heat" How much heat something puts off is not really dependant on what the temperature of that object. If the heat cannot transfer from that object to elsewhere then you wouldn't not feel anything, no matter how high the temperature of said object is.

It is possible for the cpu in your computer to be at 100C, and yet if the heat cannot transfer from the cpu to your hand when placed upon it, you would not feel a thing when touching it. You are mixing temperature and heat, and they are not the same thing.

Oh and here ya go, I will agree the heatsink might not feel "cool" as I was just trying to make a point (although cool is subjective). But I will say the point I was trying to make was that if you have a SB cpu @ 70C and an IB cpu @ 70C and touch the cpu cooler, the heatsink with the IB chip under it will be cooler to the touch BECAUSE there is LESS heat transfer. This would only be true if it was a heat transfer problem......so please prove this wrong.

There are no users reporting the heat sinks feeling very hot when the cpu is at those high temperatures like it does with SB.

Here is just one person reporting that the heat sink is "cool" or at least easily touchable with a IB cpu. And ask around OCN and you will find the same thing.
Quote:
The heatpipes, even at the base, don't feel anything like they are dissipating anywhere near ~80C. It "should" feel like a video card heatsink to the touch, but it doesn't. It, in-fact, feels just like every other CPU I have that runs between 50-65C under load.

source

It would be nice for you to post a source for your information, seems like I'm the only one that backs up what I say.
Edited by icehotshot - 5/14/12 at 12:15am
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post #144 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by icehotshot View Post

Are you serious? You once again have no links for anything you say, no proof at all, not even a press release from last year.
Ivy bridge requires LESS voltage than Sandy bridge for the same clocks. OF COURSE THERE ARE GOING TO BE GOLDEN CHIPS FOR BOTH. BUT ON AVERAGE, Ivy bridge will require less voltage for the same clock as sandy bridge....you REALLY need to look at some reviews and people here on OCN that have 4.8ghz on less than 1.3v how many SB do you see with less than 1.3v STABLE at 4.8ghz? I've personally never seen one.
Please show some proof besides ONE scenario where a SB chip is lower voltage than an IB chip....
And since they require LESS voltage on average, you would conclude that they are suffering from not being able to dissipate heat effectively.
Taking a look at the ivy bridge stable/suicide club you can see that on average IB requires less voltage on average than SB.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1247869/ivy-bridge-stable-suicide-club-guides-voltages-temps-bios-templates-inc-spreadsheet
There is a 20hr prime stable @ 4.5ghz with 1.092v.....NO SANDY BRIDGE CPU CAN DO THAT. It is pretty safe to say on average, they require less voltage than their SB counterpart, unless of course you can show some sort of proof, which you haven't yet. I at least provide articles written by reputable companies or websites, you have yet to provide one shred of evidence for any of your claims. Please provide some sort of proof other than your own words.
You do realize that a temperature is not heat, right? "80 degrees celcius is 176 degrees Fahrenheit. That's not just a "little" bit of heat" How much heat something puts off is not really dependant on what the temperature of that object. If the heat cannot transfer from that object to elsewhere then you wouldn't not feel anything, no matter how high the temperature of said object is.
It is possible for the cpu in your computer to be at 100C, and yet if the heat cannot transfer from the cpu to your hand when placed upon it, you would not feel a thing when touching it. You are mixing temperature and heat, and they are not the same thing.
Oh and here ya go, I will agree the heatsink might not feel "cool" as I was just trying to make a point (although cool is subjective). But I will say the point I was trying to make was that if you have a SB cpu @ 70C and an IB cpu @ 70C and touch the cpu cooler, the heatsink with the IB chip under it will be cooler to the touch BECAUSE there is LESS heat transfer. This would only be true if it was a heat transfer problem......so please prove this wrong.
There are no users reporting the heat sinks feeling very hot when the cpu is at those high temperatures like it does with SB.
Here is just one person reporting that the heat sink is "cool" or at least easily touchable with a IB cpu. And ask around OCN and you will find the same thing.
Quote:
The heatpipes, even at the base, don't feel anything like they are dissipating anywhere near ~80C. It "should" feel like a video card heatsink to the touch, but it doesn't. It, in-fact, feels just like every other CPU I have that runs between 50-65C under load.
source
It would be nice for you to post a source for your information, seems like I'm the only one that backs up what I say.

LMAO, who needs to supply proof when you're doing such a good job at providing your own proof that disproves your very own theory. And I'm well aware of the difference between heat and temperature (energy vs kinetic measurement). And just say this. You show me one single CPU that is capable of maintaining an internal temperature of 80+ celsius with little to no thermal conductivity without entering into a thermal feedback loop and I'll eat your hat with hollandaise sauce.


Let's take a look at ALL of the posted cpu's in the same link you provided

source: http://www.overclock.net/t/1247869/ivy-bridge-stable-suicide-club-guides-voltages-temps-bios-templates-inc-spreadsheet/0_20



4499.8mhz 1.320v 14hrs 82-86-87-82 3570k
4501.4mhz 1.212v 13hrs 68-77-73-74 3570k
4500.6mhz 1.176v 15hrs 75-79-81-77 3770k HT
4800.6mhz 1.232v 13hrs 72-74-76-70 3570k
4400.5mhz 1.248v 13hrs 76-83-83-75 3770k HT
4701.3mhz 1.356v 14hrs 80-83-80-76 3570k
4800.7mhz 1.384v 13hrs 72-80-76-78 3570k
4500.0mhz 1.208v 15hrs 74-80-83-77 3770k HT
4301.2mhz 1.212v 12hrs 74-73-70-71 3570k
4400.6mhz 1.280v 13hrs 86-89-86-84 3570k
4400.3mhz 1.200v 17hrs 70-76-75-72 3570k
4500.5mhz 1.320v 12hrs 84-90-87-84 3570k
4600.0mhz 1.168v 18hrs 70-77-75-71 3770k HT
4501.1mhz 1.092v 20hrs 62-70-68-64 3570k

Out of all 3570k's listed (10) only 1 was able to hit 4.5GHz at under 1.2V and it's even less than 1.1V. Just compare all of the 4.5 results, (4) and the V varies by a wide margin 1.092V - 1.320V with temperature variation of 62C to 84C on all 4 and all 4 are using air coolers. How can you possibly say that IB runs hot because of die shrink when you look at the link you provided yourself. If die shrink prevents the die from being able to transfer heat from the die to the heatsink which is what you claim the problem is, how is it possible for the final result to operate 22C lower than the chip just 2 steps up in the chart?? There is such a disparity in results and required voltages it points to one single culprit. Fabrication problems. As you can see only 3 CPU's in the list appear to be operating within or close to the original design specifications. That absolutely has nothing to do with "die shrink" thermal dissipation capabilities. (inability to radiate heat doesnt raise the voltage)

And it gets even worse the higher you go.
http://techreport.com/discussions.x/22859
http://www.obr-hardware.com/2012/04/why-is-ivy-bridge-hot-power-hunger-and.html
post #145 of 298
I've got my Liquid Pro for the internal TIM, whats recommended for the IHS (MX4, IC Diamond 7, Gelid GC Extreme, AS5) ?.
post #146 of 298
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

It doesn't matter, The point is that metal conducts heat. If the processor is so horrible at transferring heat because of the "die size" and the heatsink is "cool" to the touch (note he said cool, not "warm" not "room temperature" not "isn't very hot" he said "cool") then there would be absolutey zero heat transfer taking place and the CPU would fry. 80 degrees celcius is 176 degrees Fahrenheit. That's not just a "little" bit of heat. So I call hijinks on that claim.

Sorry to burst your bubble but like I said I had a 950 and it was also running @ 80C and the heatsink and the air coming out of it was incredibly hot. This processor (3770K) also ran @ 80C and I could not tell the difference (at least my hand couldn't) between the radiator or exhaust temperature from the ambient air.

The only conclusion I can draw from that is that heat isn't getting to the cooler properly.
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post #147 of 298
Have you taken a look at the edges of the IHS yet? Any word on how well the die makes contact with the IHS? Is it seated on the chip first or does it make contact with the die first? Sand Sand Sand...!!!!
post #148 of 298
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakewalk_S View Post

Have you taken a look at the edges of the IHS yet? Any word on how well the die makes contact with the IHS? Is it seated on the chip first or does it make contact with the die first? Sand Sand Sand...!!!!

Haven't taken out the chip yet and I've already removed the glue from the IHS, I don't have a sanding paper to .. sand. I'm about to build a WC loop to check the temps.
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post #149 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post

Huh? The ambient stood pretty much still through the whole test.
25.5C - 25.8C. That was the range. A neglegable 0.3C fluctuation.

You idle temps show different in those pics, as the lowest idle changed 2c lower usually showing that your ambient had to have dropped also. I misread your post thinking you said 25c-28c which would not give accurate temps. Seeing the idle temps also has me thinking that your results are off, unless you didn't let it idle for 15min before testing like many do to get the same idle state before doing any load testing. Just saying. In a test like this, that matters a lot or it's hard to believe. I wouldn't of questioned it at all if the better results showed the higher idle temp, but it doesn't. I do lots of observation when seeing test like this done, sorry tongue.gif
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post #150 of 298
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambone07si View Post

You idle temps show different in those pics, as the lowest idle changed 2c lower usually showing that your ambient had to have dropped also. I misread your post thinking you said 25c-28c which would not give accurate temps. Seeing the idle temps also has me thinking that your results are off, unless you didn't let it idle for 15min before testing like many do to get the same idle state before doing any load testing. Just saying. In a test like this, that matters a lot or it's hard to believe. I wouldn't of questioned it at all if the better results showed the higher idle temp, but it doesn't. I do lots of observation when seeing test like this done, sorry tongue.gif

I did a 1 minute p95 run to "warm" the CPU up before reading the idle temps each time to eliminate the cold boot factor.
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No Bottlenecks
(21 items)
 
 
File Server
(10 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
6700K @ 4.8 GHz 1.35V Gigabyte Z170X Gaming 7 GTX 1080 Reference @ 2.05 / 11 GHz 32GB G.SKILL Ripjaws 3350 MHz 15-14-14-34-2T 1.35V 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Intel 750 400GB PCIe WD Red 8TB NAS 10 * 6TB HGST Desktar NAS (RAID Z2) Go away 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK-FB GA Z170X Monoblock EK-FC1080 GTX Waterblock/Backplate 2 * Dazmode Darkside LP360 MCP355 DDC @ 7V 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
9 * Corsair SP120 Quiet Edition @ 7V 8.1 Pro 12-bit Asus VG27HE 27" 1080p @ 145Hz Corsair Vengeance K60 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
SeaSonic SS-520FL2 - Fanless Fractal Design Define S Logitech G502 Proteus Core XTRAC PADS Ripper XXL 
Audio
Asus Xonar DSX 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4770K @ 4.7 GHz 1.39V Maximus VI Gene MSI GTX 1070 Seahawk EK X @ 2.1/9.0 Ghz 16GB G.Skill Sniper 2600 MHz 11-14-14-14-2T 1.65V 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung 840 Pro 256GB WD Green 6TB I will end you Dazmode Darkside Maple Leaf Special Edition 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK GTX 1070 Seahawk Feser TFC Admiral 240 Black Ice GTX Xtreme M92 6 * Silverstone SST-FN121-P 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
2 * Noctua NF-B9 Redux 7 Ultimate 64-bit Samsung U28D590D 28" 4K Overlord Tempest X270OC 27" 1440P 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair Vengeance K60 EVGA SuperNova 750 G2 NZXT Vulcan (With Attached Handle) Logitech G500 
Mouse Pad
XTRAC PADS Ripper XXL 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
E5-2670 Supermicro X9SRA 64GB Samsung ECC 1333 MHz Mushkin Ventura Pro 32GB (Boot) 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
10 * 6TB HGST Deskstar NAS (RAID Z2) I will harm you Corsair H60 FreeNAS 9.10 
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Corsair RM650 (Passive) Fractal Design Define R5 
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