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post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atham View Post

So now I am torn apart: C# vs. Java.
What about C++? I heard that this language is also a good starter. How is it different from C#?

Java and C# are both great starting areas. Java is applicable in so many places these days, that its a great language to know, and the fact that it is object oriented is important, because thats where pretty much everything goes these days. C# is nice too because Microsoft provides a great all in one development kit. Visual studio 2010 is great, and has everything you need to get started, and like it was said before, intellisense is awesome ti help new programmers, and CS2010 has a very strong and useful one. C# is also object oriented which is good!

C# can also be used in VS2010 in ASP.NET giving you the ability to apply your knowledge to max complex websites, it'll go good with your HTML knowledge.

C++ is a very strong language, but I see more and more things migrating to C#. Current company I'm working for, all their software used to be in c++, and is slowly migrating everything to C#. RIght now its a mess of C# that interacts with a backend C++ layer, but the plan is to eventually have no C++ left.

C in general is a sometimes difficult first language to learn, but is great because you can apply it to iphone app development and theres always the chance that you come up with some great idea, throw it on the app store and become rich! biggrin.gif Java also applies to Android and Blackberry phone development. I did a job for a while developing for android, and it was all java work.

I'd say c# to start personally... great environment to help you learn the basics of programming. learning Object Oriented is crucial, and most languages follow very similar structures on how they work, with just some minor differences here and there, as well as having a different syntax. Once you learn the concepts of programming, and have a firm understanding of them, it is not too hard to apply them elsewhere with just a little bit of effort of familiarizing yourself with the new language.

There are tons of books out there that'll walk you through a language, starting at "hello world" and finishing off at some pretty cool little apps. Those books are really good at disguising things you learn for one specific little project, into something you can really apply all over the place in your future development!

Best of luck!
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post #32 of 46
I am not a programmer by trade, and by knowledge is limited. However my father is a programmer and has been working as one for god know show long, and I've had a multitude of conversations with him on the subject. One of the greatest flaws he sees with the younger generation of coders today is lack of understanding of core concepts of programming. People learn to code without understanding the structure, so when they meet something new they have many difficulties adapting.
He always said that if I wanted to start programming, the best path is to learn C. Not C++, not C#, not VB, not Java, etc. But plain old C. It's not sexy, but it will help you develop a vision of what you're doing.

He's worked in a lot of companies, using a lot of different languages, from Foxpro to javascript, and he's never had a problem with any of them ( to my knowedge). The most I've heard him say is "god, what kind of a retard came up with Javascript? it's so inefficient".

To make the long story short, I'd start with the basic building block. It makes things easier later on.
    
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post #33 of 46
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the replies
Quote:
Originally Posted by j0zef View Post

I am not a programmer by trade, and by knowledge is limited. However my father is a programmer and has been working as one for god know show long, and I've had a multitude of conversations with him on the subject. One of the greatest flaws he sees with the younger generation of coders today is lack of understanding of core concepts of programming. People learn to code without understanding the structure, so when they meet something new they have many difficulties adapting.
He always said that if I wanted to start programming, the best path is to learn C. Not C++, not C#, not VB, not Java, etc. But plain old C. It's not sexy, but it will help you develop a vision of what you're doing.
He's worked in a lot of companies, using a lot of different languages, from Foxpro to javascript, and he's never had a problem with any of them ( to my knowedge). The most I've heard him say is "god, what kind of a retard came up with Javascript? it's so inefficient".
To make the long story short, I'd start with the basic building block. It makes things easier later on.

Well I do want to grasp all of the concepts; that is how I work with everything. So C. Hmm... What sort of software do I need for it?
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post #34 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atham View Post

Thanks for the replies
Well I do want to grasp all of the concepts; that is how I work with everything. So C. Hmm... What sort of software do I need for it?

Don't choose between two particular languages like C and C# but rather decide between different programming paradigms to learn and practice using.

The first and foremost priority should be to grasp basic simple concepts that are consistent throughout all languages.
These may include concepts like variables, methods (functions), conditions (if...else etc.), loops, iteration, recursion, arrays, Strings etc.
Basically data structures and use and manipulation of data.
You may use ANY language to learn these concepts, from high level scripting languages like Python to (relatively) low level languages like C. The choice of the language doesn't really matter as long as you know how the different parts of a program fit and work together.

After that, you may want to look deeper into the different styles (paradigms) programming.
The primarily popular styles include procedural, functional and object-oriented. Read their wiki articles (they're quite useful actually) and read the corresponding pseudo-code posted and try to understand how they are similar yet different. The basic building blocks of programming will stay the same throughout all kinds of programming but there may be some specific differences like how object-oriented languages are based on the concepts of Classes and Objects (again read wiki articles for a wealth of information (for a beginner at least) interacting together.

Once you get to this stage where you've had experience with a language and feel you've grasped the fundamentals and are about to move to deciding between the styles of programming, then you can take advice from us regarding your choice of language to learn.

These days object-oriented languages are considered to be the most useful because they are used in developing large programs that interact together (and they provide programs with certain abilities such as polymorphism etc.). If you choose to start with an object-oriented programming language, I'd recommend either Java or C#. I started with Java but you can start with C# since you've already set it up.

The least of your worries should be syntax and the code. Learn to program, NOT to code. Huge difference.

Once you learn the difference between programming and coding, you should be able to proudly call yourself a programmer. wink.gif

If you have any questions, be free to ask them here or by PM if you wish. smile.gif


P.S. I hope this post makes sense. tongue.gif If the other posters have anything to contribute or add to this post, then please surely do. smile.gif
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post #35 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atham View Post

Thanks for the replies
Well I do want to grasp all of the concepts; that is how I work with everything. So C. Hmm... What sort of software do I need for it?

Visual Studio 2010 will compile and build C no problems. Just hit CTRL+ALT+L (iirc) and pick C as your work environment.

You should be able to get VS2010 free from many MS freebie websites for students.
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post #36 of 46
If you really want to make games, I recommend starting with basic lessons and applications that are not games. Even the most basic of visually oriented games will require you to understand state management, I/O and all kinds of other things that can be frustrating to learn if you don't have a solid grasp of programming concepts.
    
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post #37 of 46
I recommend Python for an intro into programming. It get rid of most of the areas where beginner programmers make mistakes while still teaching them to think in programming terms. Later, it remains useful as a scripting and prototyping language while it makes learning C++ easier to learn as one is not focused on learning how to think in loops and if statements and can instead focus on static typing, pointers, etc. Python also has lots of libraries to make projects easier to begin (and pyside bindings for Qt make it excellent for learning about application frameworks).

I recommend the free book How To Think Like a Computer Scientist. It's a great introduction to programming (initially targeted at high-school students I might add).

After you have the book, go to http://www.portablepython.com/ and download whichever version of python you want to learn. 2.7 is what's mostly used now and is the default of the above book, but 3.2 is the future and better IMHO for new projects (differences between the two are given in the the book via footnotes).

The portable version can be put on your flashdrive and taken wherever (as long as its a Windows computer, but mac and Linux have python built-in). In the portable python download there is (in addition to python) an IDE with an IDLE terminal for you to practice with (later move on to vi though, you'll never regret taking the time to learn).

For the record, I'm not a fan of C# and its tying the programmer to MS (Mono doesn't count as it isn't current and has lousy performance).
If you're interested in Java, I think that learning Clojure is better (it's basically Java with a different but better syntax).
post #38 of 46
One thing I'd note is that learning C can be good if you're comfortable in the procedural paradigm, which I was since I learned all my programming in the 1980s. Unfortunately it really hobbles you when you want to start understanding OO because there's a level of abstraction that wasn't there in the procedural days (hell, some of the crazy gonzo stuff you can do with pointers leaves me mystified!). I wholeheartedly recommend the C++ / C# starting point. biggrin.gif
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post #39 of 46
Thread Starter 
Will have a look at python. Just downloading the book.
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post #40 of 46
well python is one of the languages thats easy and still used for advanced stuff so definitely look into it!
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