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[TPU] TIM is Behind Ivy Bridge Temperatures After All - Page 13

post #121 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

All this talk of "chip density", "die shrink" is going to be proven completely false when they come out with the next stepping that solves the fab problems (I can only guess if it will be the next stepping or the one after that). Then I think you'll start seeing the average chip hitting 4.5 at 1.09V with 60ish C temp. Which is probably where it should be.
Honestly I think this is how the internal conversations at spIntel went. "We're having problems with the fab. Chips are running higher voltage and temps than expected". "Guess we'll have to delay release". months later "still haven't solved the problem". "We're already late, just get them out to market as fast as possible and we'll solve the problem as we go along."

So I am going to interject something here, as your statements brought up a conversation I had with a family member.

My wife's Aunt is/was on the Intel team that developed IvyBridge, so during the process I would speak with her as computers are one of the few things we have in common. She was pretty tight lipped on many details, as she had to be, but would give me small bits here and there that she felt comfortable sharing. At one point I asked about the delay and she pretty much said that the team was still working on "tweaks" and that is why it had to be pushed back a little, at least from the internally wanted release date. The impression being that they are going to keep working and release only when it was done. Well shortly after this conversation I get wind that they are suddenly going to be releasing, and was even given the date of the internal release party and such.

Flash forward to our current situation....

I firmly believe, based on my conversations with her and what we are seeing with IB, that these "tweaks" had to do with these very issues. Not wanting to hold back release any longer they released this particular product, with intentions of resolving them with a future stepping.
    
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post #122 of 288
I finally understand the complaints against drbaltazar post. It's like when I first realized who Chris Chase was.
 
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post #123 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny13oi View Post

Temperature context does change things based on which unit you are using and the baseline.
Let us say that temperature went from 100C to 0C. Did it just lose 100% of heat ... absolutely not. 0C is not absolute zero and it can still go significantly lower than 0C. That is why all scientific studies and experiments use the international unit Kelvin where 0K is actually absolute zero and nothing can go below that temperature. So to go from 100K to 0K does mean that it just lost all 100% of heat.

Heat=energy, Temperature=a measurement of the kinetic state of a substance (going to 0K can never be 100% loss of heat since temp and heat are two seperate things). A percent increase or decrease is accurate when examined from a certain point of comparison. to say that 64C is 23% less than 84C is accurate. It is not a statement in reduction of "heat" or energy. It is a comparison of value. In other words a 20 degree celsius difference equates to a 23% decrease of the value of 84C. Just like negative 20 degrees celsius would be a 123.8% decrease of the of the value of 84C. Percent increases or decreases from a compared point are not "aboslute" values and that's where your confusion lies. Think of it this way. If I have 50 dollars in my pocket, I take it out and give you the 50 and then borrow 20 from Bob and give that to you as well I've given you 20 dollars. I know have a decrease in monetary worth of 140% compared to what I started with (50+20=70, 70/50= 1.40 or 140%), 50 from my pocket and 20 that I now "owe" Bob.


To help clarify things:



Initial Definitions

Temperature is a number. That number is related to energy, but it is not energy itself.

Temperature is a number that is related to the average kinetic energy of the molecules of a substance.

Read that last sentence carefully. It does not say that temperature is kinetic energy, nor does it state exactly what is the relation between temperature and kinetic energy.

Here is the relation: If temperature is measured in Kelvin degrees, then its value is directly proportional to the average kinetic energy of the molecules of a substance. Note that temperature is not energy, it is a number proportional to a type of energy.

Heat, on the other hand, is actual energy measured in Joules or other energy units. Heat is a measurement of some of the energy in a substance. When you add heat to a substance, you are adding energy to the substance. This added heat (energy) is usually expressed as an increase in the kinetic energies of the molecules of the substance. If the heat (energy) is used to change the state of the substance, say by melting it, then the added energy is used to break the bonds between the molecules rather than changing their kinetic energy.


Again, About Temperature

So, temperature is not energy. It is, though, a number that relates to a type of energy possessed by the molecules of a substance. Temperature directly relates to the kinetic energy of the molecules.

Temperature can be measured in a variety of units.

If you measure it in degrees Kelvin, then the temperature value is directly proportional to the average kinetic energy of the molecules in the substance.

Notice we did not say that temperature is the kinetic energy. We said it is a number, if in degrees Kelvin, that is proportional to the average kinetic energy of the molecules of a substance. That means if you double the Kelvin temperature of a substance, you double the average kinetic energy of its molecules.

When the average kinetic energy of the molecules goes up (a rise in temperature), the average speed of the molecules increases. A change in average kinetic energy is not directly proportional to a change in average speed.


More About Heat

Heat is energy. When you add heat to a substance, you are adding energy.

When heat (energy) goes into a substance one of two things can happen:


1. The substance can experience a rise in temperature. The heat (the added energy) can be realized as an increase in the average kinetic energy of the molecules. The molecules now, on average, have more kinetic energy. This increase in average kinetic energy is registered as a number called temperature that changes proportionally with it. Note that this increase in the average kinetic energy of the molecules means that they will now, on average, be traveling faster than before the heat arrived.

2. The substance can change state. For example, if the substance is ice, it can melt into water. Perhaps surprisingly, this change does not cause a rise in temperature. At the exact moment before melting, the average kinetic energy of the ice molecules is the same as the average kinetic energy of the water molecules at the exact moment after melting. That is, the melting ice and the just melted water are at the same temperature. Although heat (energy) is absorbed by this change of state, the absorbed energy is not used to change the average kinetic energy of the molecules, and thus proportionally change the temperature. The energy is used to change the bonding between the molecules. Changing the manner in which the molecules bond to one another can require an absorbtion of energy (heat) as in the case of melting, or require a release of energy (heat) as in the case of freezing.

So, when heat comes into a substance, energy comes into a substance. That energy can be used to increase the kinetic energy of the molecules, which means an increase in their temperature which means an increase in their speed. Or at certain temperatures the added heat could be used to break the bonds between the molecules causing a change in state that is not accompanied by a change in temperature.

source - http://www.zonalandeducation.com/mstm/physics/mechanics/energy/heatAndTemperature/heatAndTemperature.html

(or any physics 101 textbook)
Edited by Bubba Hotepp - 5/14/12 at 5:06pm
post #124 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

So I am going to interject something here, as your statements brought up a conversation I had with a family member.
My wife's Aunt is/was on the Intel team that developed IvyBridge, so during the process I would speak with her as computers are one of the few things we have in common. She was pretty tight lipped on many details, as she had to be, but would give me small bits here and there that she felt comfortable sharing. At one point I asked about the delay and she pretty much said that the team was still working on "tweaks" and that is why it had to be pushed back a little, at least from the internally wanted release date. The impression being that they are going to keep working and release only when it was done. Well shortly after this conversation I get wind that they are suddenly going to be releasing, and was even given the date of the internal release party and such.
Flash forward to our current situation....
I firmly believe, based on my conversations with her and what we are seeing with IB, that these "tweaks" had to do with these very issues. Not wanting to hold back release any longer they released this particular product, with intentions of resolving them with a future stepping.

I concur. I had similar conversations with a couple of friends from up in Beaverton that let me read between the lines but since that's not "proof" per say I've tried sticking to the facts. And the facts are that we're seeing higher voltages than should be normal for this design in most of the chips that have been reviewed. All of those same chips are accompanied by much higher temperatures than the few that are not requiring higher voltages. It's not rocket science people. If it were an issue of thermal transfer at 22nm then all of the chips would be experiencing the same voltage and thermal range. Again, the disparity is much too big for that to be the case.
post #125 of 288
lol tell em' how it is Bubba. Look, bottom line, Intel has shareholders to answer to. You're damn right they released it, knowing full well they'd STILL make money after seeing there was zero competition other than sandy. I hate that aspect of American business. We worship the almighty dollar, and it shows.
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post #126 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

-snip-

Except temperature does not work in the exact same way as money does.

What's the percent difference between 50 and 60 C, using 50 C as the baseline? (60 - 50) / 50 = 20% difference.

Now, what's the percent difference between 323.15 and 333.15 K, using 323.15 K as the baseline? (333.15 - 323.15) / 323.15 = about 3.1% difference.

323.15 K = 50 C, 333.15 K = 60 C. So, which is correct, 20% or 3.1%? Physicists will tell you that 3.1%, because K uses the proper baseline, while C is an arbitrary value that uses the boiling and freezing points of water as 100 and 0, respectively. That's why anything physics related using temperature needs to be done in K, like ideal gas laws, etc.

Anyways, way off topic. That is why we need to be looking at deltas and absolute numbers, not percentages. Deltas and absolute numbers will tell us the real story, while percentages doesn't mean squat.
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post #127 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Except temperature does not work in the exact same way as money does.
What's the percent difference between 50 and 60 C, using 50 C as the baseline? (60 - 50) / 50 = 20% difference.
Now, what's the percent difference between 323.15 and 333.15 K, using 323.15 K as the baseline? (333.15 - 323.15) / 323.15 = about 3.1% difference.
323.15 K = 50 C, 333.15 K = 60 C. So, which is correct, 20% or 3.1%? Physicists will tell you that 3.1%, because K uses the proper baseline, while C is an arbitrary value that uses the boiling and freezing points of water as 100 and 0, respectively. That's why anything physics related using temperature needs to be done in K, like ideal gas laws, etc.
Anyways, way off topic. That is why we need to be looking at deltas and absolute numbers, not percentages. Deltas and absolute numbers will tell us the real story, while percentages doesn't mean squat.

Actually BOTH are correct. You keep thinking that the percentages are absolute values. They are relative values not ABSOLUTE. And also, Kelvin is not an "absolute" temperature scale and Celsius is not. They are just different scales of measurement of the same thing (one being slightly more accurate than the other). If I'm talking about values in dollars and you're talking about values in english pounds does that mean one of us is incorrect with percentages? Wrong it's two different measurement scales that each of us is using and both answers would be correct.

And again you're confusing "heat" with temperature. They are not the same thing.
post #128 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

Actually BOTH are correct. You keep thinking that the percentages are absolute values. They are relative values not ABSOLUTE. And also, Kelvin is not an "absolute" temperature scale and Celsius is not. They are just different scales of measurement of the same thing (one being slightly more accurate than the other). If I'm talking about values in dollars and you're talking about values in english pounds does that mean one of us is incorrect with percentages? Wrong it's two different measurement scales that each of us is using and both answers would be correct.
And again you're confusing "heat" with temperature. They are not the same thing.

But a percentage difference between pounds and dollars would still be the same percentage, since the baseline 0 is still the same for both, and difference between the two is a simple multiplier...

And I'm quite familiar with what heat and temperature is, thank you very much.
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post #129 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

But a percentage difference between pounds and dollars would still be the same percentage, since the baseline 0 is still the same for both, and difference between the two is a simple multiplier...
And I'm quite familiar with what heat and temperature is, thank you very much.

You're not getting it. The "baseline" as you refer to it is NOT 0. The base is whatever you are comparing against. Let's break it down. $25 is 50% less than $50 dollars. $50 is 50% less than $100. Note that the values are changing in respect to zero yet the percentage is staying the same. That is because we are comparing the first number against the second number as a comparison in value. You keep getting hung up on zero. We are not figuring out the relationship of the number to zero. We are figuring out the numbers relationship to another number. That is a "relative comparison" as in, "relative to $90, $45 is 50% of the value." etc.
post #130 of 288
You guys must really like infractions since you go off-topic on the most pointless of things.

Anyways, the heat issues is more due to the small surface area of chip itself. And as blameless has said, the performance differences is far too great.
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