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[SA] Is AMD’s Trinity much better than it appears? - Page 7

post #61 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbaltazar View Post

i suspect intel might not have released the hd4000 driver because it is a complex thing but i suspect when they lunch they ll be on par with amd if not better (trinity)

Exactly so new drivers for the HD 4000 means 30% better performance , without any problems so it usually goes just like that now with GPU drivers. When AMD released new drivers for Trinity APU, then AMD APU will have 30% better performance normally things are very simple or is this still just a joke what do you think?rolleyes.gifcoolsmiley03.png
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post #62 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist07 View Post

#
That graph is just Anands typical Intel bias isnt it? rolleyes.gif
The top 3 Intel are 17W ULV ...
If anything its pretty funny that a 35W trinity (note double the power limit) is almost as good as 17W Intel chips thumb.gif

And 17W Ivy will be much better;
Since 4C/8T Sandy gets 5.86hrs with 71Wh (12.11W each hour), and 4C/8T Ivy gets 5.48hrs with 56Wh (10.22W each hour), a 2C/4T Ivy will get 12hrs with 56Wh (same battery size as Llano example here).*

*You also have to take into account that 2C/4T Sandy consumes 5.5W each hour, or 2.2x less power than 4C/8T Sandy.

There is no way any AMD APU this generation will come close to that power efficiency.
Edited by born2bwild - 5/18/12 at 12:55pm
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post #63 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

And when you use your computer for thousands of tasks everyday for a year, you've just wasted hours of your life.

For the consumer market, many of these "thousands of tasks" may well be a waste of time in their own right. (Facebook, Twitter, Flash games, Movies, posting on forums...etc)
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post #64 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr/owned View Post

I'm buying IB because it offers better battery life with more clock-clock efficiency than stuff AMD can even dream about. That's what matters in a laptop. It's called the cpu. Keyword: central. Everything you do runs through the cpu. Sure, no one is compiling linux on a laptop, but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate shaving off a few load seconds here and there that a faster cpu can do. Did I mention battery life?
I went through 2 years of college with just a laptop (that I'm using right now, in fact) and I played games just fine. The second 2 years I used a gaming desktop where I had an apartment to put it. No one is going to play Crysis on a laptop. You play flash games, You play 3 year old games with the details turned down. I know the HD4000 will be plenty good enough to do whatever I need to do involving a gfx card, on the go. I know this because my 4.5 year old laptop still does everything I need to do on the go (minus the crappy battery life courtesy of me cheaping out and not buying Core2). When I need to do heavy lifting...I go to my desktop. Most people game on consoles anyways. People keep pulling out these stupid test cases to justify Trinity like "you might be opening 5 GB photoshop files when gpu comput will help"
rolleyes.gif
Trinity has a place, particularly in the low end desktop segment. But it's not some holy grail, uber panacea for all that AMD fanboys are making it out to be. There's a lot more important to a laptop than gpu performance. Sager will vouch for that (in terms of their obscure status).

Cool story bro.thumb.gif
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post #65 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by born2bwild View Post

And 17W Ivy will be much better;
Since 4C/8T Sandy gets 5.86hrs with 71Wh (12.11W each hour), and 4C/8T Ivy gets 5.48hrs with 56Wh (10.22W each hour), a 2C/4T Ivy will get 12hrs with 56Wh (same battery size as Llano example here).*
*You also have to take into account that 2C/4T Sandy consumes 5.5W each hour, or 2.2x less power than 4C/8T Sandy.
There is no way any AMD APU this generation will come close to that power efficiency.

Show your work. Looks like a bunch of nonsense.
 
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post #66 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by bencher View Post

Cool story bro.thumb.gif
rolleyes.gif Children nowadays...
post #67 of 245
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbroad77 View Post

Show your work. Looks like a bunch of nonsense.

mostly is...
Quote:
Originally Posted by born2bwild View Post

And 17W Ivy will be much better;
Since 4C/8T Sandy gets 5.86hrs with 71Wh (12.11W each hour), and 4C/8T Ivy gets 5.48hrs with 56Wh (10.22W each hour), a 2C/4T Ivy will get 12hrs with 56Wh (same battery size as Llano example here).*
*You also have to take into account that 2C/4T Sandy consumes 5.5W each hour, or 2.2x less power than 4C/8T Sandy.
There is no way any AMD APU this generation will come close to that power efficiency.

Thats some good speculation there, its not that simple, you have to think about clocks as well, and how well Ivy will work at low clocks vs high clocks etc...

Fact is that graph is pointless and Anand is trying to show intel are best at efficiency when in reality you cant really compare 17W vs 35W (or $600 vs $900), compare against Trinty 17W and then well know




Having said that its also pretty funny that Ivy mobile definitely has WORSE power consumption than Sandy mobile at the same TDP (look 2820 QM vs 3720QM), so it will be surprising if the ULV 17W chips are much better the SB mobile

2820QM - 45W tdp
2720QM - 45W tdp
367

thumb.gif
Edited by Alchemist07 - 5/18/12 at 1:36pm
post #68 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergionography View Post

i will sum this up for you one more time
trinity does everything that ivy bridge can do PLUS stuff that ivy bridge cant properly do(games, graphical tasks) all at the same battery life or better(assuming future ivy bridge will match trinity) with a cheaper price tag
and for most users the purchase comes down to this: laptop looks nice, does everything they need it to do, has good battery life and portability, and matches their budget
so at the end of the day, the most important factor of all is price, as most people look at products according to their budget, and then they look at its portability/battery life so unless the 900$intel looks totaly freaking better than the 500$ trinity a typical person(majority of people dont know much about computers) will totaly go for trinity, especialy with all its fancy stickers and marketing "QUAD CORE, DISCRETE LEVEL RADEON GRAPHICS, 4-8GB RAM, 500GB HDD
now who in their right mind would buy a dual core that lacks a radeon sticker for 900$ when they can get a quad core with radeon! not to mention the lower frequency on the dual core vs the 3.2ghz on trinity!!(remember this is a typical person)
so my point is, whether from a practical standpoint, or a marketing stand point, AMD is dealing with a WIN-WIN situation, no wonder they are so confident about trinity, and im happy for them, as for the first time they are being good businessmen rather than just nerds who innovate, amd has brought more innovations than anyone, but they sucked at business, even when they had superior cpu's they couldnt sell better than intel, but look at how llano gained them 46% market share even tho it was clearly weaker in terms of cpu and was using a pretty outdated but good gpu (vliw5), and with trinity being even way better than llano they will only be getting better and better

Eventhough I'm buying a Trinity Sleekbook, I will comment on some things you mentioned. Do note that I'm not singling you out, this goes for a lot of people making price assumptions....
Quote:
1. "the most important factor of all is price, as most people look at products according to their budget, and then they look at its portability/battery life so unless the 900$intel looks totaly freaking better than the 500$ trinity a typical person (majority of people dont know much about computers) will totaly go for trinity"

Where is this $500 Trinity you speak of, and which processor will it have? A laptop with an E-450 costs $400 - $500 typically
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&N=100017489&isNodeId=1&Description=E-450&x=0&y=0

If we go by the AMD laptop given to reviewers, that sample exceeds $700. Though in reality AMD will have no option than to price Trinity at $700 max because they can't compete at higher price points.

There are Intel options, and they're not necessarily $900 as you claim. Heck, I looked up NewEgg, and I couldn't find a single $900 Intel laptop. There are laptops at $1100+ but all those come with a 1080p display, Nvidia graphics like a 570M, 750GB HD and the whole works, definitely not something that comes with a "$500 Trinity Laptop"

Check the $600 - $800 range, there are some really good choices. There's even an i7 2670QM + 555M for $800:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=StoreModule&N=100017489&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&Depa=3&Category=223&ModuleType=0&BaseItems=34-214-609&DisplayedItems=34-158-284%2C34-214-609%2C34-158-224%2C34-215-345&SellerTryTab=0&Tid=17489&SrchInDesc=intel&Page=1&PageSize=20

Heck, if you can live with a Refurbished Model, check this out for $699 ( Intel Core i7 2675QM(2.20GHz) 15.6" 6GB Memory 750GB HDD AMD Radeon HD 6490M )
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834131223
Quote:
2. whether from a practical standpoint, or a marketing stand point, AMD is dealing with a WIN-WIN situation, no wonder they are so confident about trinity, and im happy for them, as for the first time they are being good businessmen rather than just nerds who innovate,

It's interesting you would say that, the 7970 was launched at $550 ( almost $200 more over the card it was replacing ) AMD took advantage of the fact that Nvidia was late with Kepler. They took it upon themselves to compare their new Gen card, to a previous Gen card to justify their price. Certainly "Good Businessmen" for THEIR bottom line.

Early adopters paid premium. Once competition was out, they were FORCED to drop their price, it certainly wasn't by choice though as their cards weren't selling at their asking price. That process took a couple weeks even, and they didn't want to budge since the 680 was sold out.

If Trinity's CPU was stronger, they'd be charging more for it, simple as that. Again, based on Trinity's performance they HAVE to price them below $700 in order to compete. AMD is not a charity, and they don't always price things cheaper by choice.
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post #69 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist07 View Post

Having said that its also pretty funny that Ivy mobile definitely has WORSE power consumption than Sandy mobile at the same TDP (look 2820 QM vs 3720QM), so it will be surprising if the ULV 17W chips are much better the SB mobile

Um, no it doesn't. Ivy has much better power consumption than Sandy as seen on that graph. Yes it does for some strange reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbroad77 View Post

Show your work. Looks like a bunch of nonsense.

It turns out they were (nonsense). I mean the calculations themselves were logical, I just misread the graph. Catastrophically misread, that is.
Edited by born2bwild - 5/18/12 at 2:49pm
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post #70 of 245
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by born2bwild View Post

Um, no it doesn't. Ivy has much better power consumption than Sandy as seen on that graph. Sandy gets 5.86 hours with a 71Wh battery (27% larger batter battery than with Ivy detup), while Ivy gets 5.48 hours with a 56 Wh battery (27% smaller battery than Sandy setup).
That means in an hour:
The Ivy Bridge Quad-Core with 8 Threads will consume 10.22W (56Wh/5.48h).
The Sandy Bridge Quad-Core with 8 Threads will consume 12.11W (71Wh/5.86h).
That makes the Ivy Bridge ~20% more power efficient than SB (even counting in the 300Mhz clock increase on the Ivy (12.11W/10.22W)).
I'll show a more detailed version of my work in order to help you understand;
SB CPUs:
The Sandy Bridge Quad-Core with 8 Threads (i7 2820QM) consumes 12.11W each hour (71Wh/5.86h).
The Sandy Bridge ULV (2Cores/4Threads) (i3 2367QM) consumes 5.55W each hour (47Wh/8.47h).
We can conclude that the Sandy Bridge ULV is 2.2 times(12.11/5.55) more efficient than the Quad-Core with 8 threads SB.
IB CPUs:
The Ivy Bridge Quad-Core with 8 Threads consumes 10.22W each hour (56Wh/5.48h).
With this data, we can conclude that Ivy is 19% more power efficient than Sandy (12.11Wh/10.55Wh).
Given that the ULV will be 2.2x more efficient than the Quad Core with 8 thread model, the Ivy Bridge ULV will consume 4.65W each hour (10.22Wh/2.2).
OR We can use the fact that Ivy Bridge will be 19% more power efficient, which will give us a value of 4.5W (5.55Wh*0.81 (1-0.19 (since Ivy bridge is 19% more efficient))).
And so finally, with a 56Wh battery (just to make it comparable to the Llano), we can expect 12.44-12 hours of battery (56Wh/4.65W or 4.5W).

I feel sorry for you, you wasted all that time on those calculations, yet you failed to notice that this is normalized battery life.

Look at the subheading of that graph. "Normalized to battery capacity (min/Wh)" that means that the battery capacity has already been taken into account.
That Ivy Quad is certainly worse than that Sandy Quad. Face it.

Edit: In case you are wondering (Min/Wh) is Minutes per Watt hour. The total time (in minutes) is divided by the battery capacity (Watt hours) to give the Minutes per Watt hour (Min/Wh) in that graph.
Edited by Alchemist07 - 5/18/12 at 2:50pm
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