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[TT] MSI Geforce GTX 680 Lightning Spotted - Page 64  

post #631 of 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermi View Post

Not disagreeing , just pointing out that your idea on this differs quite a bit from those saying and telling me , basically "do not worry about your oc now these cards are for adding volts" ... I myself have been trying to say if you do not get to 1300mhz at say 1.25 or 1.26 V (hardware level, which is what these cards are doing in LN2 Bios) is going to 1.4V gonna majically make my low clocker a high one?
and a little off topic I am PAYING for the ability to OC so yes I do take into my consideration these Lightnings overclocking ability (where I would not with a reference card)
back on topic
Just tested my worse performing card and even under LN2 Bios which IS delivering around 1.25/6 volts it WILL not even do 1270 (I stopped going down because it was a waste of my time and these are hard lock my computer up crashes I bet it is 1250 or less!!!) I doubt it will do much over 1300 at 1.35v .... where as my 1355 clocker (with LN2 (1.26V) and 1230 with 1.175V (1.21 actual) will likely do over 1400 with 1.35- 1.40 V (just speculating)
If you wanna go hard you need a good GPU and without it all the cool overclocking features are worthless!!! and this card IS being sold and marketed as an overclocking card, that is unless it cannot overclock ... then it is same as reference and you should be happy with stock speeds LOL LOL LOL
in other news one of my cards got to 1388 pts in heaven with 55.1 fps (heaven completely maxed at 1080p) it's core was 1300 (can get to about 1310 not sure yet and that is with LN2) but it's MEMORY is SICK solid at plus 525 or 550 in heaven in that run (plus 550/575 gave artifacts) my top clocking card does 1355 Core but only plus 375 mem (I want to combine those into one SUPER GOLDEN CARD LOL )
I will give more updates (I want 1400 Heaven with one card!)

Loving the results!

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post #632 of 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermi View Post

Not disagreeing , just pointing out that your idea on this differs quite a bit from those saying and telling me , basically "do not worry about your oc now these cards are for adding volts" ... I myself have been trying to say if you do not get to 1300mhz at say 1.25 or 1.26 V (hardware level, which is what these cards are doing in LN2 Bios) is going to 1.4V gonna majically make my low clocker a high one?
and a little off topic I am PAYING for the ability to OC so yes I do take into my consideration these Lightnings overclocking ability (where I would not with a reference card)

yes, thats what more voltage does.. it allows you to clock things even higher lol. Of course it probably wont ever achieve the same clocks as the "better clocking" card at a given voltage, but it will still overclock very nicely and both cards will scale properly with increases in voltage. The only drawback being one card (the "worse" card) will require more voltage than the other (the "better" card) to achieve the same clocks, thus producing more heat. but if youre such a hardcore OCer then youll find a way to deal with the heat... or simply do your own binning of these already-binned cards and youll find one that does 50mhz more than the others at the same voltage.

we all know that every card will clock differently so you shouldnt be surprised when you see that some lightnings do 1270 or 1300 and others do 1350. just bc one guy gets 1350 doesnt mean that is the standard by which everyone should base their OCs.

if the only reason you bought this card was to leave it at stock voltage and hope for 1350+ mhz then you shouldnt have bought one
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post #633 of 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelrw View Post

yes, thats what more voltage does.. it allows you to clock things even higher lol. Of course it probably wont ever achieve the same clocks as the "better clocking" card at a given voltage, but it will still overclock very nicely and both cards will scale properly with increases in voltage. The only drawback being one card (the "worse" card) will require more voltage than the other (the "better" card) to achieve the same clocks, thus producing more heat. but if youre such a hardcore OCer then youll find a way to deal with the heat... or simply do your own binning of these already-binned cards and youll find one that does 50mhz more than the others at the same voltage.
we all know that every card will clock differently so you shouldnt be surprised when you see that some lightnings do 1270 or 1300 and others do 1350. just bc one guy gets 1350 doesnt mean that is the standard by which everyone should base their OCs.
if the only reason you bought this card was to leave it at stock voltage and hope for 1350+ mhz then you shouldnt have bought one

WOW that is so right on and dead wrong.

When you get to the edge of your accepted safe limit of voltage and or temps (especially for daily overclocking) or rather when I do I just do not get any more speed ... so for me I do care a bit about getting cards that do more than others at a given voltage... because when I get to my voltage limits and I do not feel safe to go further I cannot add more voltage to get one of my cards to it's goal OC and in the case of some gpu's and cpu's ... you can hit walls and for those reasons to hedge my chances of achieving my goal OC's try to find cards which OC fairly well at stock or low voltage increases (in the case of a card that does not yet have full voltage control) to maximize my OC within my acceptable voltage (and possibly temperature, though with these cards under water temps should not be much of an issue at least on the core).

That is my system and the rational is sound for my needs/desires ... though it may not fit yours if you will pour say 1.7V into your gpu or whatever it is you do smile.gif

And I DO think you miss read me as my point was in the text you highlighted with bold type that if a card does not clock well at 1.21V or 1.25 V as in the case of the card I have that will not do more than 1250mhz at 1.25v I doubt HIGHLY that 1.4V would magically make it overclock as well as a more OC friendly GPU, I am not saying I would not add voltage ... just focusing on the fact that the clocks you get at stock voltage or the LN2 voltages can likely give some indication as to whether the gpu will scale well with more voltage ... that is all.

I hope I clarified my point ... and man I AM NOT SURPRISED by the differences, disappointed yes but surprised no, I do believe the word I originally used way back many pages ago was disappointed.

to be honest I am not totally sure of the point of your commentary on my post?
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post #634 of 900
my point is, if youre so set on achieving a certain frequency just add more voltage. if youre set on achieving a certain freq at a given voltage, buy a new card (or ten). its not the end of the world. I would love to have one that does 1350+ without more voltage but i do not. mine does 1315, but im ok with that. You either make peace with it or buy a new card and continue self-binning the lightning GPUs. Either way, you have one of the best performing GK104s available..
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post #635 of 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelrw View Post

my point is, if youre so set on achieving a certain frequency just add more voltage. if youre set on achieving a certain freq at a given voltage, buy a new card (or ten). its not the end of the world. I would love to have one that does 1350+ without more voltage but i do not. mine does 1315, but im ok with that. You either make peace with it or buy a new card and continue self-binning the lightning GPUs. Either way, you have one of the best performing GK104s available..

Thanks for clarifying smile.gif I am happy with my cards and await voltage control. Have fun with your card to!!! smile.gifsmile.gif
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post #636 of 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelrw View Post

my point is, if youre so set on achieving a certain frequency just add more voltage. if youre set on achieving a certain freq at a given voltage, buy a new card (or ten). its not the end of the world. I would love to have one that does 1350+ without more voltage but i do not. mine does 1315, but im ok with that. You either make peace with it or buy a new card and continue self-binning the lightning GPUs. Either way, you have one of the best performing GK104s available..

Of course there is no guarantee regarding voltage, but in my experience it has helped without exception. It helped me achieve higher clocks on my former radeon 7970s and lightning GTX 580s.

Like everything else I guess its a YMMV type of thing. Anyway, regarding this entire RMA thing -- there's a mob mentality on the internet where people think they have a right to overclocking, as a business owner i've seen people return cards as defective because they couldn't reach the same speeds as little Timmy on hardocp.com got. People think without hesitation at returning cards they've damaged through overclocking which is RMA fraud (I am speaking in general terms here, not pointing at anyone), I can't stress enough that this stuff can and does shoot all of us in the foot and raises everyones prices. This type of thing is the scourge of the industry -- and like I have posted before hardware companies actually have a "padding" in their pricing to cover for people that abuse the warranty / RMA procedures. Do you know that this "pad" has gone up more than 200$ in the past few years? Card prices have not become more expensive to produce, but RMA abuse has caused this rise in prices. If only people knew how much profit is built into all of these GTX 680 cards, and a large percentage of it is dedicated to guess what.....fraudulent RMAs and warranties.

As far as my harsh words earlier, I apologize about that, but I can't stress enough how BADLY this is hurting the industry. Currently all major etailers are looking at ways of screwing customers with across the board restock fees and/or removing all returns because of fradulent RMAs from people damaging cards through overclocking. It deeply affects us all and nobody realizes it, so yes it makes me mad. On top of this, consider that newegg does resell returned cards that are used but look new as new cards. So anything you return, guess what? It will be sold to someone else and you are screwing someone else as well.

In my opinion, 1275 is not a bad overclock at all, i've certainly seen some other factory OC'ed cards that have done worse. Case in point hexus did a review of the galaxy (KFA2) SOC hall of fame card and their max overclock was 1170, so there are never guarantees -- the fact that people are complaining about overclocks to 1300 with the lightning should tell you something. Now this I cannot believe, because 1300 is a MONSTER overclock! Some people are just being ridiculous! I am just in disbelief at some people (again, speaking in general terms here and not finger pointing.). Anyway, I am betting that voltage will help those with slightly lower OCs, there's no guarantee of course.

Anyway, I won't bring this up again because its never a good topic to bring up here wink.gif
Edited by xoleras - 6/30/12 at 4:24am
post #637 of 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Anyway, I am betting that voltage will help those with slightly lower OCs, there's no guarantee of course.
)

once we all have full voltage control, things should get interesting. fingers crossed for the release of 2.2.3 in the next few days!
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post #638 of 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Of course there is no guarantee regarding voltage, but in my experience it has helped without exception. It helped me achieve higher clocks on my former radeon 7970s and lightning GTX 580s.
Like everything else I guess its a YMMV type of thing. Anyway, regarding this entire RMA thing -- there's a mob mentality on the internet where people think they have a right to overclocking, as a business owner i've seen people return cards as defective because they couldn't reach the same speeds as little Timmy on hardocp.com got. People think without hesitation at returning cards they've damaged through overclocking which is RMA fraud (I am speaking in general terms here, not pointing at anyone), I can't stress enough that this stuff can and does shoot all of us in the foot and raises everyones prices. This type of thing is the scourge of the industry -- and like I have posted before hardware companies actually have a "padding" in their pricing to cover for people that abuse the warranty / RMA procedures. Do you know that this "pad" has gone up more than 200$ in the past few years? Card prices have not become more expensive to produce, but RMA abuse has caused this rise in prices. If only people knew how much profit is built into all of these GTX 680 cards, and a large percentage of it is dedicated to guess what.....fraudulent RMAs and warranties.
As far as my harsh words earlier, I apologize about that, but I can't stress enough how BADLY this is hurting the industry. Currently all major etailers are looking at ways of screwing customers with across the board restock fees and/or removing all returns because of fradulent RMAs from people damaging cards through overclocking. It deeply affects us all and nobody realizes it, so yes it makes me mad. On top of this, consider that newegg does resell returned cards that are used but look new as new cards. So anything you return, guess what? It will be sold to someone else and you are screwing someone else as well.

In my opinion, 1275 is not a bad overclock at all, i've certainly seen some other factory OC'ed cards that have done worse. Case in point hexus did a review of the galaxy (KFA2) SOC hall of fame card and their max overclock was 1170, so there are never guarantees -- the fact that people are complaining about overclocks to 1300 with the lightning should tell you something. Now this I cannot believe, because 1300 is a MONSTER overclock! Some people are just being ridiculous! I am just in disbelief at some people (again, speaking in general terms here and not finger pointing.). Anyway, I am betting that voltage will help those with slightly lower OCs, there's no guarantee of course.
Anyway, I won't bring this up again because its never a good topic to bring up here wink.gif

If this really is the scourge that you say (and I am not saying it is not in any way) how best to spread the right message or meme to the right people?

I see you are starting that here, but maybe a short video showing video card prices at fantastically high levels or escalating levels (much like a video showing the rising price of oil might do) put on you tube and spread around the community .... sort of like that Al Gore global warming documentary !!! Maybe even some real evidence within the video of how a small difference in overclocking does not really do much in real use and that the majority of cards really do perform basically the same in games regardless of that last few percent ... maybe even starting an idea of collective buying where a group of people buy say 10 cards together and split them up asymmetrically with those who want and get the best clocking cards of the bunch pay more into the pot and those who are happy with lower clocking cards pay less... (that could work with a group like this) ...

I hear you!!!

BTW do you have some sources to back up those figures on markup and policy change or is that hearsay and guestimates? (though the whole Costco electronics return fiasco is evidence of a similar phenomena) , also are you saying that returns with restocking fees have a similar effect on price structure? and what about the role that companies play in marketing cards for overclocking like the lightning and classifieds and like EVGA put out numbers done with LN2 talking world records , these cards are designed for xyz where xyz means HIGH overclocks... I mean if they were just advertised as being able to handle more volts and make things cooler which increases your odds of being able to oc higher it would have an effect on some of this...

I am just trying to think in broader terms as there are many factors which would lend themselves to fostering this type of behavior... and as for fraudulant warranty I am wondering how they know how much they loose to that because if the warranty request falls beyond the scope of the warranty terms they just should not repair it ... and so I am wondering how they are calculating their loss from that?

I also think this falls into the responsibility of resellers... I mean Newegg spend time to make video's of products, why not make video's showing how these things affect the customers prices ... and letting people know if they want to continue to have GREAT customer service perks like a easy RMA policy it has to be used on the up and up! I mean they can be proactive and in a positive way ...

There are three parts here and the customer is one of them but all have hands in the issue and can help with the solution.

There are also ALOT of other factors ... as I do not know where your figures come from I am also led to wonder if this is the whole pirated games syndrome where in reality not too much revenue is lost or rather it is a good excuse to enact what the companies want to enact anyway like Crytec moving to consoles??? or airlines who found some excuses with oil prices to nickle and dime customers...

I mean I believe there are insurance policies to protect some of those loses (I believe best buy uses or used such a policy on returns ) (this I am less sure of, so feel free to ignore it ...

I am not disagreeing with you and I see you feel strongly about this and I get the impression you work in an area where you have a good idea of how this all goes down ... I am just sharing some thoughts and questions that popped into my head after reading your post biggrin.gif
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post #639 of 900
These will be the first 2 Lightnings I've ever owned (arriving Monday), and I just had a question. The GPU Reactor on the back of the PCB...is this thing necessary? Will I have to remove it for these things to fit in SLI? The review I read says it allows for cleaner and higher power levels, so will I see any decrease in performance on air-cooling if I remove them, or only at really high voltages?
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post #640 of 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by dph314 View Post

These will be the first 2 Lightnings I've ever owned (arriving Monday), and I just had a question. The GPU Reactor on the back of the PCB...is this thing necessary? Will I have to remove it for these things to fit in SLI? The review I read says it allows for cleaner and higher power levels, so will I see any decrease in performance on air-cooling if I remove them, or only at really high voltages?

No. Msi has stated its benefit if any is under ln2 level voltages. But the reactor cap comes off and the reactor is still connected. It sticks up no higher then the backplate

But it can't hurt to leave it connected. No reason to remove the board itself

And if your board has tri-slot x16 spacing it will fit without issue in sli
Edited by wutang61 - 6/30/12 at 9:10pm
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