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[Build Log] - The Big Budget Boomer Box (aka, the "BBBB") - Page 70

post #691 of 3982
Simply awesome. I hope I can afford to one day go balls to the wall with my favorite hobby like this. Hat's off sir.
post #692 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpachris View Post

700
Nothing will be external. But I have 3 different size tops for this case. The standard, the 64mm, and the 85mm. So I could go this route, and still put a top on it that covers everything. What I plan to do is see how much room is left in the case before deciding which pieces go in the main compartment and which go in the top. Right now, I have the push fans in the main compartment and the rads and pull fans on top. But it will be covered no matter which direction I go.

OMG! Don't give me a heart attack like that!! biggrin.gif
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post #693 of 3982
I saw your teaser on [H]ard Forum and decided to check out your thread. Interesting build, and it only took me three days to get through to the end.
That is really a rich color that you chose. thumb.gif

I may have missed it, but is there any concern about the inefficiency of the push-pull fan design on your radiators?
I've read before that it can be inefficient and actually result in increased temps. And that's not considering the extra fan noise that your generate.
Just asking...

Anyway, I'll be checking this thread to follow your progress.
post #694 of 3982
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoomcdaniel View Post

I saw your teaser on [H]ard Forum and decided to check out your thread. Interesting build, and it only took me three days to get through to the end.
That is really a rich color that you chose. thumb.gif
I may have missed it, but is there any concern about the inefficiency of the push-pull fan design on your radiators?
I've read before that it can be inefficient and actually result in increased temps. And that's not considering the extra fan noise that your generate.
Just asking...
Anyway, I'll be checking this thread to follow your progress.

Hey Wahoo! Thanks for coming and checking it out.

Point me to the study you are remembering. I've seen oodles of studies that all seem to say that Push/Pull will always beat either push or pull. Some show it beats it by a little, some by a lot. But I've never seen one suggesting it could increase temps. Would love to read it though.

The fans are being undervolted and don't generate hardly any noise at all.
post #695 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpachris View Post

Hey Wahoo! Thanks for coming and checking it out.
Point me to the study you are remembering. I've seen oodles of studies that all seem to say that Push/Pull will always beat either push or pull. Some show it beats it by a little, some by a lot. But I've never seen one suggesting it could increase temps. Would love to read it though.
The fans are being undervolted and don't generate hardly any noise at all.

I think he meant in your picture you have the top rads with the fans facing up, thus attempting to cool the rads using air that has already passed through another rad and also been heated by the motherboard/hard drives. If that is the case, he is correct in that your top rad fans should pull air down from the top into the case. Unfortunately, I think doing so would end up giving you an air pressure problem: 48 in vs 1 out would be an aweful bottle neck even with the fact that the air is being pulled through rads. In the shown configuration, you'd have 32 in vs 17 out. As odd as it may sound, I would actually have your two front 360 be the out instead of the top 480s. The 480s are much more efficient and higher performance rads than the 360s, so would benefit more from having the fresh outside air used.

You'll also want to have an air temp sensor inside the case. If your internal case temp exceeds your water temp (which is very likely with so many hard drives), it would actually be more beneficial to not have rads where the air exhausts as it would only serve to heat the water back up. I don't know how high you plan to run your fans, but you may experiment a little and if a single 120mm rear fan is actually enough on a higher setting to move all the air from all 7 rads blowing it in, then that would be the best option.
post #696 of 3982
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrocutor View Post

I think he meant in your picture you have the top rads with the fans facing up, thus attempting to cool the rads using air that has already passed through another rad and also been heated by the motherboard/hard drives. If that is the case, he is correct in that your top rad fans should pull air down from the top into the case. Unfortunately, I think doing so would end up giving you an air pressure problem: 48 in vs 1 out would be an aweful bottle neck even with the fact that the air is being pulled through rads.

I think most people understand the chicken and egg problem, and you just have to kind of go with what you think will work best. On the one hand, it would be great to have fresh air blow in across the radiators. The cool fresh air would improve radiator performance (marginally). But where is all that air blowing?....it would be blowing the radiator heated air into the case right at your components...which is what your trying to cool in the first place. On the other hand, if all of your radiators had air blowing out of the case across them, you would be blowing your component heated air across the radiators, and decreasing their effectiveness. And if you did them all one way or the other way, you would have either a real bad air pressure problem...either negative or positive.

So you kind of just have to design how you want your air flow to work, and know that not every radiator will be ideal. I think overall airflow is much more important anyway. Hot air rises, and I plan to utilize that in my overall airflow. The way I'm envisioning my airflow is take in air up through the bottom and in through the front, and expel it up through the top and out the back. I think the natural air flow and fans are going to keep air moving through the case, and that is more important in my mind than the order of whether its ambient>rad>component>exhaust, or any other combo. If you keep ambient air moving into your case and then out of it, ...that air is going to touch your rads and components. I think the order in which is touches them is less important than keeping air moving into the case and out of it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrocutor View Post

In the shown configuration, you'd have 32 in vs 17 out.

17 out? Your discounting the HUGE impact my 4 baby 40mm fans will have!!!! biggrin.gif But seriously, I do think you need to consider the two PSU's which do exhaust air out the back. Plus, you really would have to look at the CFM being moved by the fans to compare the ins and outs. The only unimpeded fans in the whole mix, are on the back panel. The 120mm on the back will move more air out, than any single fan will move when bringing air in.

And there won't be close to 32 bringing air into the main case. Will be somewhere between 12 and 15....although not finalized. Most of the rest of the fans are in the pedestal in an across airflow...not blowing up into the main compartment.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrocutor View Post

As odd as it may sound, I would actually have your two front 360 be the out instead of the top 480s. The 480s are much more efficient and higher performance rads than the 360s, so would benefit more from having the fresh outside air used.

It might incrementally improve cooling performance of the top radiators...but it would hurt the overall airflow concept, and would also hurt the performance of the 360 rads. Trade-offs any way you go. I'm focusing most on a logical overall airflow. Cool air from the bottom is pushed to the top by fans, and as it heats up, it naturally rises more, and then is expelled out the top. Bottom to top. And all else being equal, it seems better to have a front to back airflow, rather than a back to front. The front air should be cooler and closer to ambient than the small spot in the back of the case between the case and the wall...where the PSU will be dumping heat no matter what I do, and the pedestal 280 will be dumping heat also.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrocutor View Post

You'll also want to have an air temp sensor inside the case. If your internal case temp exceeds your water temp (which is very likely with so many hard drives), it would actually be more beneficial to not have rads where the air exhausts as it would only serve to heat the water back up. I don't know how high you plan to run your fans, but you may experiment a little and if a single 120mm rear fan is actually enough on a higher setting to move all the air from all 7 rads blowing it in, then that would be the best option.

I'll have 5 or 6 air temperature sensors located throughout the case, as well as 5 or 6 water loop temperature sensors. With all the drives being SSD's, I don't anticipate them generating a bunch of heat, but we'll see. I think they consume about 2 watts per drive, so even all 16 together should not be generating close to the amount of heat from any other component. I would expect the air temp inside my case to be comparable, or much lower, than similarly equipped rigs, just because its so much larger and has all the fans keeping the air moving. Easier to get some heat build-up in a small case without good airflow.

There is room on the back of the case to cut/mount additional 120mm fan holes above the current exhaust fan. Could be done on both sides. I'll wait and see what temps are like.
post #697 of 3982
Love the contrast. smile.gif

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post #698 of 3982
Actually., I wasn't meaning to comment just on fan direction.
I don't have specific articles bookmarked that I can point you to.
But I recall watercooling discussions in the past that identified air turbulence from push/pull setups on a rad as decreasing efficiency.
post #699 of 3982
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citra View Post

Love the contrast. smile.gif
Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515a using Tapatalk 2

Thanks Citra.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoomcdaniel View Post

Actually., I wasn't meaning to comment just on fan direction.
I don't have specific articles bookmarked that I can point you to.
But I recall watercooling discussions in the past that identified air turbulence from push/pull setups on a rad as decreasing efficiency.

If you ever run across any again, post a link. That would be new info for me. I've included a picture below from my favorite tester, Martin, and his results on push vs pull vs push/pull testing:

700

He tests the air efficiency and the water/air temperature delta, for both high speed fans and low speed fans, in push vs pull vs push/pull, both with and without a shroud. The test is interesting and worth a read, but I'll summarize his findings quickly. The difference between push vs pull was minor....but push came out a little better. Push/Pull beat either push or pull, with a delta difference of up to two degrees lower. Shrouds don't always help, and sometimes hurt. Depends on the radiator and fans.

The other thing that this test shows, and has been consistent in almost every test I've seen, is that fan speed has much more of an impact on temperatures than fan configuration does.
post #700 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpachris View Post

The other thing that this test shows, and has been consistent in almost every test I've seen, is that fan speed has much more of an impact on temperatures than fan configuration does.
But maybe not quite that much impact with your plenty-o-rads setup? My non-overclocked 2500K can idle at under 40° C without fans, it's a CPU only loop with Alphacool 360 (thick UT60) rad and GT AP-15 fans. The rad is overkill for my setup, and the difference between full load with fans undervolted at around 40% and at full tilt is 2, maybe 3° C.
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