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post #951 of 8074
Thread Starter 
@ Dumo -how tight can you get them @ 1200/1300 ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 636cc of fury View Post

PSC based keepers, (2300 c8's untested atm)

how much binning flares require ?(i have one set -1300 8-12-8 is hard )
Edited by coolhandluke41 - 3/29/13 at 12:36pm
    
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post #952 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhandluke41 View Post

@ Dumo -how tight can you get them @ 1200/1300 ?
how much binning flares require ?(i have one set -1300 8-12-8 is hard )

both sets I have easily run 2600 8-12-8 on air with tight secondary and tertiary timings, though the c9's seem to need a bit less voltage.

the 2000 9-9-9 bin can run tWCL 6 with CL 8 on air and lower volts than the 2000 7-9-7 bin, but the c7's seem to scale very well with cold, have not gotten a chance to test the c9's under cold though.
post #953 of 8074
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what voltages for Flares ? (2000 7-9-7 bin)
    
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post #954 of 8074
Quote:
As far as I remember, Mushkin did not have any software to measure memory temperature, so I guess you're reading it from heatspreaders via probe or infrared sensor, right?

My sig rig and pics shows I have an nzxt sentry 2 temp sensor, so yes I'm using thermal diodes.
Quote:
Given that your current 1200MHz CL8 1.75V overclock doesn't provide too much headroom, most likely you will have to back out either in timings (to CL9) or in frequency (to 1100MHz), this is why I think 4x2Gb is not going to work out in your case.
Also, you say that 2x2Gb of PSC costs $20. Yes, but you have to be very lucky for it to be stable at 1200c8 with 1.75 or less at this price, I can't remember more than 3-4 such cases in my two years of binning.

I don't know what you mean, I think I have a ton of headroom... My secondary and tertiary timings, I tested and set them all way below their automatic defaults, so I can loosen them if necessary. My VTT/IMC/PLL voltages are all below stock, I can raise them if necessary. And my ram voltage is only 1.75v, which gives me lots of headroom to go up to 1.85v if I want to.

I really don't understand what you mean, 2400mhz CL8 is far and beyond 1333mhz CL9, or ~1600mhz CL8 of maybe the best RAM I could find used at $40-50. Oh no, I run 4 sticks and have to run 2200mhz CL9... that's still wayyy faster than 1600 CL8 which might overclock to 1866 CL8.

I've used multiple kits of 2x2GB PSC XDZs, and all of them were capable of 2400mhz CL8. The only difference was whether it took 1.65v, 1.7, or 1.75v. I mean even if I can't do that, if I could do 2000mhz CL9 that would be a huge 'win' for value over any 2x4gb kit in similar price range.

I mean on newegg, the cheapest 2x4GB ram at 2000mhz is $200
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820104210

So yea, paying only $40 for RAM that has the same settings at stock as $210 RAM, I'd say it'd be stupid to go with 2x4gb instead of 4x2gb. The only problem is how complex it may be to figure out what RAM is PSC on 2gb, and buy them, since they are generally end of life, but if you know what you are doing, it'd be dumb to buy 4gb sticks in terms of value.

And that isn't even getting into overclockability, and the fact that PSC (and BBSE too, which also only exists in 2gb sticks) overclocks way further than any other ram ICs.

Oh no, this 2000mhz at stock ram for $20 can only go to 2100mhz, how will it compete with 1866mhz ram for $70.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233142
Quote:
I agree with this sentiment, to find PSC that is stable at those clocks/timings for $20 is a push, Usually you have to buy a higher binned kit and then still hope for the best.

Well I said $20-30, but I just purchased my third kit of 2x2GB PSC for $25 shipped.
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post #955 of 8074
What Sam means Belial is headroom for higher clocks or the same clocks with 4x2gb configs. If you loosen the secondary and tertiary timings you'll get crappier bandwidth so it's not a good idea.
I run my 4x2gb mixed psc set as follows (one set of 6-9-6 800mhz ripjaws x and a 1000mhz cl9-9-9 ripjaws x one):
1000mhz (2000mhz ddr) with cl9-9-9-24-1t and super tight secondary and tertiary timings. I can do that at the rated stock voltage of 1.65v and get higher bandwidth than a looser 2400mhz config with 4x2gb sticks on my imc. I can boot at 2600mhz with 2 sticks and run some 2d stuff with one, but 4 sticks definitely makes it harder and no amount of vccio and vccsa makes it any better without cold (at least for me).
post #956 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhandluke41 View Post

what voltages for Flares ? (2000 7-9-7 bin)

depending on the board 1.845-1.87
post #957 of 8074
Quote:
What Sam means Belial is headroom for higher clocks or the same clocks with 4x2gb configs. If you loosen the secondary and tertiary timings you'll get crappier bandwidth so it's not a good idea.
I run my 4x2gb mixed psc set as follows (one set of 6-9-6 800mhz ripjaws x and a 1000mhz cl9-9-9 ripjaws x one):
1000mhz (2000mhz ddr) with cl9-9-9-24-1t and super tight secondary and tertiary timings. I can do that at the rated stock voltage of 1.65v and get higher bandwidth than a looser 2400mhz config with 4x2gb sticks on my imc. I can boot at 2600mhz with 2 sticks and run some 2d stuff with one, but 4 sticks definitely makes it harder and no amount of vccio and vccsa makes it any better without cold (at least for me).

Yes, I got that. In a perfect world why buy a i5-3570k or i7-3770k, you are so stupid, it will never compare to an i7-3960x. Yes, but price is a big factor. $50 in 2GB sticks (ie 4x2 psc) vs $50 in 4gb sticks (slightly more than the cheapest sticks, at best some 1600 cl9s) is almost 1ghz in difference. Maybe I won't be able to do 2400mhz CL8, it'll be 2200mhz CL8. That's fine, that's still over 500mhz faster than the cheapest 2x4gb ram, at no additional cost.

2x4 sticks at 1600mhz CL8, maybe 1866 with an overclock... or 4x2 at 2400mhz CL8, 9. I mean you'd have to loosen your ram timings/speed a TON in order to come anywhere as slow as comparable 2x4GB RAM, which costs $210 over just $50 for the 4x2gb sticks.

I mean it's common knowledge that 4 sticks will overclock slightly less than 2 sticks, that's just a matter of the slowest stick holding you back. But 2 sticks will overclock slightly less than the single best stick. It's just an absurd thing to say. So...is he saying I should spend $210 for RAM that has similar stock speeds but won't overclock nearly as far, even with just 2 sticks? Or that oh, psc is bad? I don't get it.. He just keeps making captain obvious posts to me that are kinda irritating ;/

like im well aware a fan is much more than what a heatspreader can do (which only does like 5*C over no heatspreader at all), that still doesn't answer my question whether thermal tape would be better than thermal pads or not (i dont see why high end tape wouldn't be better, but then I'm also wondering why dont they just use cheap tape, all ram uses thermal pades, not thermal tape...).
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post #958 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

Quote:
What Sam means Belial is headroom for higher clocks or the same clocks with 4x2gb configs. If you loosen the secondary and tertiary timings you'll get crappier bandwidth so it's not a good idea.
I run my 4x2gb mixed psc set as follows (one set of 6-9-6 800mhz ripjaws x and a 1000mhz cl9-9-9 ripjaws x one):
1000mhz (2000mhz ddr) with cl9-9-9-24-1t and super tight secondary and tertiary timings. I can do that at the rated stock voltage of 1.65v and get higher bandwidth than a looser 2400mhz config with 4x2gb sticks on my imc. I can boot at 2600mhz with 2 sticks and run some 2d stuff with one, but 4 sticks definitely makes it harder and no amount of vccio and vccsa makes it any better without cold (at least for me).

Yes, I got that. In a perfect world why buy a i5-3570k or i7-3770k, you are so stupid, it will never compare to an i7-3960x. Yes, but price is a big factor. $50 in 2GB sticks (ie 4x2 psc) vs $50 in 4gb sticks (slightly more than the cheapest sticks, at best some 1600 cl9s) is almost 1ghz in difference. Maybe I won't be able to do 2400mhz CL8, it'll be 2200mhz CL8. That's fine, that's still over 500mhz faster than the cheapest 2x4gb ram, at no additional cost.

2x4 sticks at 1600mhz CL8, maybe 1866 with an overclock... or 4x2 at 2400mhz CL8, 9. I mean you'd have to loosen your ram timings/speed a TON in order to come anywhere as slow as comparable 2x4GB RAM, which costs $210 over just $50 for the 4x2gb sticks.

I mean it's common knowledge that 4 sticks will overclock slightly less than 2 sticks, that's just a matter of the slowest stick holding you back. But 2 sticks will overclock slightly less than the single best stick. It's just an absurd thing to say. So...is he saying I should spend $210 for RAM that has similar stock speeds but won't overclock nearly as far, even with just 2 sticks? Or that oh, psc is bad? I don't get it.. He just keeps making captain obvious posts to me that are kinda irritating ;/

like im well aware a fan is much more than what a heatspreader can do (which only does like 5*C over no heatspreader at all), that still doesn't answer my question whether thermal tape would be better than thermal pads or not (i dont see why high end tape wouldn't be better, but then I'm also wondering why dont they just use cheap tape, all ram uses thermal pades, not thermal tape...).

 

 Maybe I lost you somewhere.. but I dont see a point to your statements.

 

 Are you arguing value based on subjective testing? If so your clearly the smartest individual here, and have outwitted us all with your superior frugality. Im sure your wallet thanks you..but your posts are a little brash.

 

*or maybe you just like to rub Sam the other way. :p

post #959 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

Yes, I got that. In a perfect world why buy a i5-3570k or i7-3770k, you are so stupid, it will never compare to an i7-3960x. Yes, but price is a big factor. $50 in 2GB sticks (ie 4x2 psc) vs $50 in 4gb sticks (slightly more than the cheapest sticks, at best some 1600 cl9s) is almost 1ghz in difference. Maybe I won't be able to do 2400mhz CL8, it'll be 2200mhz CL8. That's fine, that's still over 500mhz faster than the cheapest 2x4gb ram, at no additional cost.

2x4 sticks at 1600mhz CL8, maybe 1866 with an overclock... or 4x2 at 2400mhz CL8, 9. I mean you'd have to loosen your ram timings/speed a TON in order to come anywhere as slow as comparable 2x4GB RAM, which costs $210 over just $50 for the 4x2gb sticks.

I mean it's common knowledge that 4 sticks will overclock slightly less than 2 sticks, that's just a matter of the slowest stick holding you back. But 2 sticks will overclock slightly less than the single best stick. It's just an absurd thing to say. So...is he saying I should spend $210 for RAM that has similar stock speeds but won't overclock nearly as far, even with just 2 sticks? Or that oh, psc is bad? I don't get it.. He just keeps making captain obvious posts to me that are kinda irritating ;/

like im well aware a fan is much more than what a heatspreader can do (which only does like 5*C over no heatspreader at all), that still doesn't answer my question whether thermal tape would be better than thermal pads or not (i dont see why high end tape wouldn't be better, but then I'm also wondering why dont they just use cheap tape, all ram uses thermal pades, not thermal tape...).

Also a bit lost.

As for the thermal tape/thermal pad question, I'm pretty sure most thermal padding has better thermal transfer capability than thermal tape. Thermal tape kinda sucks for heat transfer, but it is better than nothing where you need something that sticks.
    
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post #960 of 8074
It's just inane to say 'running 2 sticks of ram is better than 4' when I'm running 2400mhz CL8 2gb density sticks. Okay, so should I sell off my 2gb psc's and go spend $210 on the cheapest RAM faster than 1866mhz that won't overclock nearly as far? It's obvious, everyone knows 4 sticks will clock slightly lower than 2, 2 less than 1, but it's extremely insignificant. hmm, so 2 sticks of ram that can't come anywhere close to what 4 sticks of psc that costs 4 times as much is better? what? And ram overclocking, yes, we all know, it's worthless and stupid and a waste of time, that's why we're all in the OCN ram addict club, but 1ghz extra in ram speed will make a difference. Sorry, it's like he follows me and answers every post I make with captain obvious comments that are useless. He doesn't even read my posts, just makes useless responses to them.
Quote:
The only are where you're going to notice the difference between 2 and 4 sticks are synthetic benchmarks (AIDA64 and SuperPi 32M). In daily use there will be no measurable difference whatsoever, but running 4 sticks raises the chances of failure so that's why it's recommended to use 2.

I don't do just 'daily use' on this computer, I do programs that heavily rely on memory bandwidth, particularly memory speed, it's very noticeable in what I do. And you are going to tell me that there is no noticeable difference whatsoever, in running 2400mhz ram over 1600mhz ram? really? Because I can definitely notice it. And who cares if it's only in synthetic benchmarks, I thought this was Overclock.net, in the ram addict thread? Not "dont bother tweaking your computer to the max because you are just wasting your time' thread.

Like these kinds of responses, really?

Getting back to my original question, I had heard that 4 sticks of RAM will have higher memory bandwidth than 2 sticks, despite the fact that 4 sticks won't overclock as far and has a higher stress on the IMC and has to be compensated for (I even explicitly stated that in my post, yet captain obvious feels he has to tell me, what i just said). Coolhandluke first brought this up to me, I believe, and pointed out how a lot of top hwbot scores are done with max ram, 4 sticks of ram.
Quote:
some guys are getting better scores with 4 psc sticks clocked really high for 2d.

....supposedly it helps with superpi 32m despite being tougher on your cpu's imc if you get to the same clocks

I'm trying to find a more in-depth ram discussion here, not 'oh my god why bother overclocking ram, you won't notice in BF3 and chrome which i'm just going to assume that you do because that's what i do' or total disregard for the fact that 2400mhz in 2x4gb is $40 vs $210 for 2x4gb 2000mhz which might go a timing or two lower.
Quote:
As for the thermal tape/thermal pad question, I'm pretty sure most thermal padding has better thermal transfer capability than thermal tape. Thermal tape kinda sucks for heat transfer, but it is better than nothing where you need something that sticks.

Really? I always figured thermal pads transferred heat the worst, i thought it was just easy to use or something. I would figure thermal tape would be way better because it's so thin, it's just more metal to metal . Especially sekusui thermal tape which is so highly regarded.

I think I'll test it out on a single stick, the worst that can happen is as if I wasn't using a heatspreader (which is a loss of 5*C), and I just learned RAM is okay for 90*C. Seriously how do none of you guys know what the max ram temps are? Took a while to figure that out, was in the far depths of altavista to find that out.
Edited by Belial - 3/30/13 at 3:02pm
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Rosewill Capstone 550w Modular NZXT Source 210 w/Modded Window Razer Deathadder 3.5G Steelseries Blizzcon D3 
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Phenom ii X4 955C2, $31, 5 broken pins, works! ... Biostar A770e3 6.3 Red&Black MSI GTX 460 768mb Twin Frozr II 2 x 2GB Kingston HyperX 1333 OC to 1348CL7@1.65v 
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Build In Progress
(17 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Haswell i7-4770K 4.8GHz@1.452v/1.97vRIN Gigabyte Z87X-UD3H Older Gigabyte 7950 (H60 Mod) 2x4GB Gskill 2400CL11 Hynix CFRs 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung 830 128gb Corsair H110 w/4x 140mm Yate Loon High Blues W7 x64 Ultimate Yarrgh Matey Dell U2312HM Matte IPS 1080p 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
Sanyo DP19640 18.5" 768p KDS Rad-7xp 1024p CM Storm Quickfire Rapids Brown Rosewill Capstone 750 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Bitfenix Shinobi Modded CM Storm Spawn Steelseries Diablo 3 2 set CD Speaker + Big Sub 
Other
Bitfenix Recon Fan Controller Moded 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Delidded i7-3770K 5GHz@1.499 Gigabyte Z77X-UD5H 1.1 Sapphire Dual-X 7950 3L Boost 4x2GB Mushkin Ridgeback 2200mhz 8/11/8/27 1.75v... 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel X25-M 80GB SSD NH-D14 SE2011 Noctua 120/140/140 Fans 3 x Yate Loon Mediums (Petras) 2 x NZXT Havik 140mm Fans 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Hax'd W7 Ultimate 64-bit Sanyo DP19640 19'' KDS Radius Rad-7xp 17'' Ducky 1087 MX Brown 10keyless 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Rosewill Capstone 550w Modular NZXT Source 210 w/Modded Window Razer Deathadder 3.5G Steelseries Blizzcon D3 
AudioAudioOtherOther
Phillips FW-C250 2 Speaker Set w/3 CD Changer JBL Sub 6 Subwoofer NZXT Sleeved LED Strip 1m Blue NZXT Sentry 2 Fan Controller 
Other
Colonial Blue Paracord Sleeving 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom ii X4 955C2, $31, 5 broken pins, works! ... Biostar A770e3 6.3 Red&Black MSI GTX 460 768mb Twin Frozr II 2 x 2GB Kingston HyperX 1333 OC to 1348CL7@1.65v 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel X25-M G2 80GB SSD NH-D14 SE2011 6 x Case Fans (4 x YL-M, NZXT case fan, CM Hype... Jerryrigged Chipset-Northbridge 80mm HSF 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Jerryrigged VRM Heatsink (sawed off stock AM2 h... Hax'd W7 Ultimate 64bit Sanyo DP19640 19"1360x768 Ducky Cherry Browns 10keyless 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Earthwatts 430D NZXT Gamma Steelseries Kinzu Optical Steelseries Blizzcon Diablo 3 
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