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post #961 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

It's just inane to say 'running 2 sticks of ram is better than 4' when I'm running 2400mhz CL8 2gb density sticks. Okay, so should I sell off my 2gb psc's and go spend $210 on the cheapest RAM faster than 1866mhz that won't overclock nearly as far? It's obvious, everyone knows 4 sticks will clock slightly lower than 2, 2 less than 1, but it's extremely insignificant. hmm, so 2 sticks of ram that can't come anywhere close to what 4 sticks of psc that costs 4 times as much is better? what? And ram overclocking, yes, we all know, it's worthless and stupid and a waste of time, that's why we're all in the OCN ram addict club, but 1ghz extra in ram speed will make a difference. Sorry, it's like he follows me and answers every post I make with captain obvious comments that are useless. He doesn't even read my posts, just makes useless responses to them.
I don't do just 'daily use' on this computer, I do programs that heavily rely on memory bandwidth, particularly memory speed, it's very noticeable in what I do. And you are going to tell me that there is no noticeable difference whatsoever, in running 2400mhz ram over 1600mhz ram? really? Because I can definitely notice it. And who cares if it's only in synthetic benchmarks, I thought this was Overclock.net, in the ram addict thread? Not "dont bother tweaking your computer to the max because you are just wasting your time' thread.

Like these kinds of responses, really?

Getting back to my original question, I had heard that 4 sticks of RAM will have higher memory bandwidth than 2 sticks, despite the fact that 4 sticks won't overclock as far and has a higher stress on the IMC and has to be compensated for (I even explicitly stated that in my post, yet captain obvious feels he has to tell me, what i just said). Coolhandluke first brought this up to me, I believe, and pointed out how a lot of top hwbot scores are done with max ram, 4 sticks of ram.
I'm trying to find a more in-depth ram discussion here, not 'oh my god why bother overclocking ram, you won't notice in BF3 and chrome which i'm just going to assume that you do because that's what i do' or total disregard for the fact that 2400mhz in 2x4gb is $40 vs $210 for 2x4gb 2000mhz which might go a timing or two lower.
Really? I always figured thermal pads transferred heat the worst, i thought it was just easy to use or something. I would figure thermal tape would be way better because it's so thin, it's just more metal to metal . Especially sekusui thermal tape which is so highly regarded.

I think I'll test it out on a single stick, the worst that can happen is as if I wasn't using a heatspreader (which is a loss of 5*C), and I just learned RAM is okay for 90*C. Seriously how do none of you guys know what the max ram temps are? Took a while to figure that out, was in the far depths of altavista to find that out.

I use all my PSC/BBSE to browse forums, clearly top bin is needed:D

Dude not to crap on your parade, but you come off with a condescending attitude when we are all trying to help you. If you know all/better than why ask?

4 dimms is harder to stabilize than 2 however the performance gain from bank interleaving is usually worth the trade off you gain from just 2 dimms. I have run 4 dimms of PSC at 2600 7-11-7 under cold and the time was still slower (32M) than 2 dimm 2700 7-11-7, so food for thought.

I am sorry none of us knew that ram was rated for 90c, I usually try to keep it at -100c when really pushing as that's what this type of ram is meant for. Honestly I would never use PSC for a daily driver, as there are so many better choices, in particular good 2666 c10 bin Samsung and you get good density at 4GB per stick.
post #962 of 8074
Thread Starter 
Belial ...please read the OP (post picks , benches,etc ) don't make this thread about you and stop insulting members for trying to help you and since you have more questions then most please start your own thread
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post #963 of 8074
It's a legit question - is there a particular compatibility/performance reason to use thermal tape instead of thermal pads on heatspreaders? Wouldn't high end thermal tape like sekusui, be better than stock thermal pads? I'm aware that thermal pads are cheap, I'm sure companies want to save money, but even high end ram has thermal pads instead of tape, making think there's something more than just tape>pads. So I think it's a legit question (to which ftw 420 has said thermal pads actually outperform thermal tape, which really surprises me and I'm curious why he thinks that).

I'm well aware that replacing TIM is 'not necessary', I seriously do not need to hear how replacing the TIM won't do much or how a fan is better than replacing TIM. Duh. That doesn't answer my question. That's like if someone asks "should I use coollaboratory liquid ultra instead of the stock paste" and someone saying "adding a fan would do more".

And then my 2nd question is if anyone is aware of 4 sticks having more bandwidth than 2 sticks despite the fact that 4 sticks is a higher load and won't overclock as far, ie something like 4 sticks of 2400 CL8-12-8-28 outperforming 2x 2400 CL8-11-8-28. I don't need to hear about what I had just said, I'm asking about something a bit more advanced, obviously.

I don't have a problem with anyone here, it's just Sam constantly trolling me. I should have just PM'd him instead. You guys don't see the many responses he keeps giving me in every thread repeating basic information I just stated in my OP and how I'm so stupid to be spending time on something that you won't notice in BF3, even though I do semi-professional level, multithreaded applications that significantly benefit from ram overclocking in a noticeable way, not just browsing and gaming. I'm sure he means well but it's a bit annoying how he keeps giving me TH level responses when I'm clearly asking a more in-depth question.
Quote:
4 dimms is harder to stabilize than 2 however the performance gain from bank interleaving is usually worth the trade off you gain from just 2 dimms. I have run 4 dimms of PSC at 2600 7-11-7 under cold and the time was still slower (32M) than 2 dimm 2700 7-11-7, so food for thought.

Exactly what I'm asking about. What exactly is bank interleaving (I know what it is, let's one stick refresh while other is accessed, but not sure on the pratical implications and how it relates to the subject at hand).? But I'm not sure what you mean on that last part, you'd expect any set of sticks of any config to run slower if it was on a slower speed. Is there a typo in there? Rep'd.
Edited by Belial - 3/31/13 at 2:38pm
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post #964 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

It's a legit question - is there a particular compatibility/performance reason to use thermal tape instead of thermal pads on heatspreaders? Wouldn't high end thermal tape like sekusui, be better than stock thermal pads? I'm aware that thermal pads are cheap, I'm sure companies want to save money, but even high end ram has thermal pads instead of tape, making think there's something more than just tape>pads. So I think it's a legit question (to which ftw 420 has said thermal pads actually outperform thermal tape, which really surprises me and I'm curious why he thinks that).

I'm well aware that replacing TIM is 'not necessary', I seriously do not need to hear how replacing the TIM won't do much or how a fan is better than replacing TIM. Duh. That doesn't answer my question. That's like if someone asks "should I use coollaboratory liquid ultra instead of the stock paste" and someone saying "adding a fan would do more".

And then my 2nd question is if anyone is aware of 4 sticks having more bandwidth than 2 sticks despite the fact that 4 sticks is a higher load and won't overclock as far, ie something like 4 sticks of 2400 CL8-12-8-28 outperforming 2x 2400 CL8-11-8-28. I don't need to hear about what I had just said, I'm asking about something a bit more advanced, obviously.

I don't have a problem with anyone here, it's just Sam constantly trolling me. I should have just PM'd him instead. You guys don't see the many responses he keeps giving me in every thread repeating basic information I just stated in my OP and how I'm so stupid to be spending time on something that you won't notice in BF3, even though I do semi-professional level, multithreaded applications that significantly benefit from ram overclocking in a noticeable way, not just browsing and gaming. I'm sure he means well but it's a bit annoying how he keeps giving me TH level responses when I'm clearly asking a more in-depth question.
Exactly what I'm asking about. What exactly is bank interleaving (I know what it is, let's one stick refresh while other is accessed, but not sure on the pratical implications and how it relates to the subject at hand).? But I'm not sure what you mean on that last part, you'd expect any set of sticks of any config to run slower if it was on a slower speed. Is there a typo in there? Rep'd.

It was a while back when I was looking at thermal pads & tape, I do use both & noticed that looking at the wm/k the thermal pads that have it in the specs were all higher than the thermal tape I could find.
Most TIM was better than average pads, & most pads were better than tape. There may well be tape out there that is better than pads, I think it was 3m tapes I was looking up & they weren't great.

Being too basic in answers isn't really the same as trolling, I don't think he is out to annoy you. As you said, just not going in-depth when that is what you are looking for. Remember that many posting on forums look at the question & not really at who is asking so it might just be a habit to give the basic answer that most people are looking for.
In a couple threads here I've seen about 1/2 of OCNers responding with answers to the title of the thread without ever looking at the OP to know what the question actually was.
    
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post #965 of 8074
I think Belial should start a thread with his ram doubts clearly stated cause he tends to go overboard with big walls of text and people either lose interest or feel offended by the tone he appears to have.
I personally have chatted with him via pm and he's a nice guy but he just appears to be a dick at times and people get annoyed by that.

So Belial, learn to be more brief and to the point man and post a new thread at the ram section here tongue.gif
As for answers:

-Thermal pad vs tape, covered by FtW
-Bank interleave: I don't understand it thoroughly but I've seen the effects where lots of 2d benchmark runs like spi32m had slightly better results with 4 sticks vs 2 sticks at the same timings and clocks.
What Sam meant is that it's not worth it normally cause of the problem of finding a cpu with a strong enough memory controller but that it does outperform 2 stick configs. So there you have it...
post #966 of 8074
4 dimms at the same mhz timings as 2 dimms is obvously going to be faster, however if you can overclock the memory in 2 dimms significantly higher than 4 dimms then that might be a better option. What I was saying was that 2600 7-11-7 4 dimm was slower than 2700 7-11-7 in 2 dimm operation, so depending on your system and the vast number of variables (twcl, secondaries and tertiaries etc. . ), either option could be a good choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-channel_memory_architecture

imho you are going to have to add 2 dimms and retest your memory overclock, or get a new kit, that is 2x4GB or 2x8GB and go from there.

And I know you keep saying there are no kits that will perform as well for the price, but check this thread out.

they are usually about $80 for a 2x4GB kit and overclock pretty well, I will be testing a set later this week sometime when they get here and post results.
Edited by 636cc of fury - 3/31/13 at 3:38pm
post #967 of 8074
A new thread on philosophy and technicality of ram should be open where peeps can discuss what is exactly a ram is.

As far as this thread goes probably better to stick with ram type information and benching results. Keep it simple and easy to understand as reference thread to compare ram kits.

Just my 2c
Edited by centvalny - 3/31/13 at 6:27pm
post #968 of 8074
+1
post #969 of 8074
Quote:
It was a while back when I was looking at thermal pads & tape, I do use both & noticed that looking at the wm/k the thermal pads that have it in the specs were all higher than the thermal tape I could find.
Most TIM was better than average pads, & most pads were better than tape. There may well be tape out there that is better than pads, I think it was 3m tapes I was looking up & they weren't great..

That's very interesting (i was just about to say how w/mk is unreliable). I think I just won't bother then, not even to test it out.
Quote:
In a couple threads here I've seen about 1/2 of OCNers responding with answers to the title of the thread without ever looking at the OP to know what the question actually was.

I know this guy is following me though man. And yesterday, I got a PM with no name on it. So sketchy.
Quote:
I personally have chatted with him via pm and he's a nice guy but he just appears to be a dick at times and people get annoyed by that.

i dont appear to be a dick, i am a dick, but we all have the same goal here - to crank up higher overclocks. I'm your dick (no one is going to get that movie reference).
Quote:
-Bank interleave: I don't understand it thoroughly but I've seen the effects where lots of 2d benchmark runs like spi32m had slightly better results with 4 sticks vs 2 sticks at the same timings and clocks

imho you are going to have to add 2 dimms and retest your memory overclock, or get a new kit, that is 2x4GB or 2x8GB and go from there.

And I know you keep saying there are no kits that will perform as well for the price, but check this thread out.

they are usually about $80 for a 2x4GB kit and overclock pretty well, I will be testing a set later this week sometime when they get here and post results..

I recall Bank (and channel) interleave in the BIOS, I know I've looked it up a milion times because I always google and look up every single bios option and try to set every single one to the most optimal setting (fast boot on w7, anyone? anyone?), and those 2 settings are like the only 2 bios settings I leave on auto. Is bank interleaving something you enable or disable, is it only on when you got 4 sticks of ram? I've read what it is a million times but i still dont recall what a bank is.

But that's exactly what I'm asking about. So basically, 4 sticks of RAM > 2 sticks, despite conventional knowledge? Or is it a matter of 4 sticks (better performance via bank interleave) vs 2 sticks (better performance via higher overclock)?

Maybe just everyone sees those Tomshardware articles, and even though everyone knows TH is full of misinformation, obscure stuff like how 2 sticks of ram overclock further than 4 sticks gets accepted and then passed around over and over and so everyone says 2 sticks is better than 4 without actually testing (maybe 4 sticks can do the same clock as 2, just needs a tiny bit more voltage, kind of thing, I mean TH is only doing what, 1.5, 1.65v, and they aren't changing vtt, imc, etc stuff at all which may be necessary for 4 sticks).
Quote:
What Sam meant is that it's not worth it normally cause of the problem of finding a cpu with a strong enough memory controller but that it does outperform 2 stick configs. So there you have it...

Well i7-3770k, strong IMC. He didn't say anything about imc or 4 sticks ever outperforming 2 sticks lol. I wish.
Quote:
4 dimms at the same mhz timings as 2 dimms is obvously going to be faster,

What I was saying was that 2600 7-11-7 4 dimm was slower than 2700 7-11-7 in 2 dimm operation, so depending on your system and the vast number of variables (twcl, secondaries and tertiaries etc. . ), either option could be a good choice.

Wait, what? It was never obvious! Sam even said that '2 sticks is always better than 4', as per 'common knowledge'. I get what you meant though, if you can do the same overclock it will be faster but usually you can't.

Well, hopefully the 2 sticks I'm getting are binned equal or better than the 2 sticks I'm currently using so that won't be an issue. If it is, I'll raise my VTT/IMC voltages (which are currently below stock, I did repeated 24+ hour testing to find minimum of everything in my system) and I can also even raise ram voltage (the only reason I'm not running more than my current 1.75v is because more voltage didn't do anything extra for me, seems to be how PSC works, there's a very sweet spot in voltage and it takes a ton more voltage to get a tiny bit higher which will still be super unstable) to compensate. Worst case scenario I just drop a timng or two(or maybe I could just drop a timing on the channel with the new ram!).

As for the 2x4gb ram you listed... it's EOL (like PSC, so whatever), and at $80 that's significantly more expensive than 4x2gb PSC (almost twice as expensive). Seems like a no brainer to go for 4x2 over 2x4. Though PSC/BBSE does take a bit of hunting so obviously not everyone would care to do all of this effort to find what ram ICs some end of life ram sold on ebay really is, but if you did care, and you were knowledgeable, like we all are.

Although those samsung 2x4gbs (what, $40-45?) are actually a pretty good deal.

Your posts are awesome though, thanks a lot.
Edited by Belial - 3/31/13 at 7:36pm
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post #970 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhandluke41 View Post

@ Dumo -how tight can you get them @ 1200/1300
I will test it next

So far 2933



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2950, higher probly gotta go 2T



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