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Serverely dissapointed with Indigo Xtreme TIM - Page 3

post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post

Indigo Extreme TIM is extremely tempermental. It took two times (and separate products) before I got it right. You have to follow the instructions perfectly, despite how absurd they may seem.
First off: Lay your case on it's side, so that the processor is sitting level. Use a level to make sure it is actually level. You want to start up the computer with no heatsink/cooler. You *have* to let the processor heat to 100 C. Use Prime95 to do this. Your computer will shut off when the processor reaches the 100 C hard limit. Don't worry, Intel/AMD set's that limit for a reason, and it is well within the acceptable safety range. Unless you have a faulty processor, it will not break.
You can watch it during this process. The metal will melt inside it's plastic module, and spread across the processor. If it does not completely spread across the processor, then it isn't set right / not level. I messed this up my first time and could not get proper coverage on a core. I removed the TIM improperly and had to get a new one. This heating process is called "Burning In" by Indigo. Always use the gloves they give you, along with the wipes. Never use bare hands, ever, it will effect end performance.
You have to essentially forget everything you've ever known about applying TIM in order to use the IE TIM.
Using IE lowered my temps on my i7-950 3 Celsius on 3 cores and 2 Celsius on the 4th.

You're supposed to have the heatsink on but fans disconnected, or waterblock on and pump disconnected if you're water cooling. If you did it with no heatsink at all, you better go back and re-read the instructions. It serves no purpose at all if you didn't have the heatsink on. The need for excessive heat for flow creates problems with coolers like the Noctua OP has because it can dissipate a huge amount of heat to the surrounding air even with no fans on.
post #22 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by latelesley View Post

Actually - when powered off, these components can be subjected to up to 260C - remember when they are soldered to the boards they inhabit, they usually go through a solder reflow process, not dissimilar to the "bake trick" that a lot of folks try with their faulty GPUs. Warmed up to 100C with a hairdryer shouldn't subject any component to enough thermal stress to damage it, as long as it's powered down. The game changes though of it is powered up. smile.gif
Hope that helps
Lesley x



But these components were not turned off when subjected to these temperatures.



And a non operating temperature of ~300C is for the solder joints. I would never subject the caps themselves to that temperature and trust the product in question ever again. The bake trick is for recovering an otherwise bricked card, as in there isn't anything to lose if you fail.
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post #23 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SavantStrike View Post

But these components were not turned off when subjected to these temperatures.
And a non operating temperature of ~300C is for the solder joints. I would never subject the caps themselves to that temperature and trust the product in question ever again. The bake trick is for recovering an otherwise bricked card, as in there isn't anything to lose if you fail.

Most components CAN handle 260C for a couple of minutes - specifically for the soldering process - caps included. A Lot of caps even have an operating temp of 105C - just look at the label on many in a PSU. Here, we are not talking about subjecting them to 260C - I do agree the bake trick is a rescue mission with odds of failure. But heating to 100C-110C for a couple of minutes to aid the fitting of the TIM, I think it would be safe enough, but I would do it in a powered down state - rather than the suggested trick of having the CPU overheat. Hell, it wouldn't even work on my Athlon II, I don't think it could get to 100C without throttling or shutting down.

http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/Papers/soldering_aluminum_electrolytic.pdf

http://www.fujicon.com/pdf/user_guide/Soldering%20of%20aluminum%20e-cap.pdf

http://www.niccomp.com/help/techinfo/landpads6.pdf
Edited by latelesley - 6/16/12 at 3:12pm
post #24 of 41
Not doubting you latelesley but why fight with a with TIM that needs 90c + to spread when there are so many other TIMs that work great at or near room temperature?
post #25 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by latelesley View Post

Most components CAN handle 260C for a couple of minutes - specifically for the soldering process - caps included. A Lot of caps even have an operating temp of 105C - just look at the label on many in a PSU. Here, we are not talking about subjecting them to 260C - I do agree the bake trick is a rescue mission with odds of failure. But heating to 100C-110C for a couple of minutes to aid the fitting of the TIM, I think it would be safe enough, but I would do it in a powered down state - rather than the suggested trick of having the CPU overheat. Hell, it wouldn't even work on my Athlon II, I don't think it could get to 100C without throttling or shutting down.
http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/Papers/soldering_aluminum_electrolytic.pdf
http://www.fujicon.com/pdf/user_guide/Soldering%20of%20aluminum%20e-cap.pdf
http://www.niccomp.com/help/techinfo/landpads6.pdf


I stand corrected then.

But those PDFs all say 260C for a maximum of 10 seconds and 5 seconds (the last one was 5, the other two were 10). This indigo extreme stuff says they want a couple of minutes at 100C. That said the delta between 100C and 260C is pretty high. A properly concentrated heat source (not a hair dryer) should keep the caps well under that number. The third PDF is quite interesting in that regard as 120 seconds is acceptable at 150C.

A heat gun on a low setting would probably be ideal, but only for a tower cooler. Other problems could arise though as I don't know how much abuse most tower heatsinks are rated for. The pressure inside the heat pipes could conceivably reach levels higher than the cooler was designed for since the vapor is all confined (which it had better be or it wouldn't work lol).


And I guess us water people are screwed, as no way am I running my chip at 100C. I hear my H100 doesn't really count as water though lol.
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post #26 of 41
Thread Starter 
Yeah so this was bugging me so much I decided to give it another go.

I removed the previous applcation, and found this:
450
450
450

Can you make out that "glob" on the bottom left corner? It seems the adhesive was not making good contact with the CPU. So it seems it did reflow correctly, because you can see it is spread out pretty evenly across the CPU. I'm thinking the wasted metal that went into this glob is what hindered performance.

So I gave it another go, making sure to press down all over the CPU once I had the pad down and before I mounted the Heatsink, to make sure I had a good seal.

I also realized that, on my first go around, my case fans were on, and this might have been enough to make the reflow difficult. So I shut off the case fans as well, and after about 2 mins of Prime 95, boom, I got an almost identical graph of what the reflow process should look like. No blow dryer needed. Did I actually succeed at getting this TIM on right?

Graph from the instructions
450

Graph from Actual Reflow, 2nd Time Around
450

I hooked up all the fans, ran a bench immediatly, and wow, my idle delta dropped 0.5C and my Load Delta Dropped 1.5C. Wow at least I got a drop and I won, right?

Wrong.

I shut off the computer over night, and ran a bench 8 hrs later. Same delta of 15C at Idle, 45C at load. But here is where the problem began. A bench I ran 2 horus after this one, and any subsequent one, gives me temps that are worse by 4C at idle and 7C worese at load!!!

So basically, the TIM worked as it should for about 2 hours, and then gave me really bad temps afterwords.

I did order Phobya Hegrease, when I apply that to the CPU, I will be taking pictures of the second application to see what went wrong.

I'm not sure how others have fared, but I think 2 variables that might effect the performance of this TIM is the fact that My CPU is lapped and that the HS I have is huge.

No me gusta.
Edited by Wesleeptheylive - 6/18/12 at 3:14pm
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post #27 of 41
Thanks for the update thumb.gif
post #28 of 41
Why is there plastic in there? Did you actually apply it and mount the heatsink with the plastic still in it? (not the sheet with the blue, the one that supposed to be a backing that it looks like I'm seeing)
post #29 of 41
Thread Starter 
Yes, you apply the whole thing onto the CPU, no real Metal>TIM>Metal contact. Unless there is something I am not aware of. But pretty sure it's designed that way because there is not way of scraping out the metal to place it on your cpu....
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post #30 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesleeptheylive View Post

Yes, you apply the whole thing onto the CPU, no real Metal>TIM>Metal contact. Unless there is something I am not aware of. But pretty sure it's designed that way because there is not way of scraping out the metal to place it on your cpu....

No, there are 3 layers of plastic. The bottom one towards the CPU comes off then you apply the TIM, the top one comes off before you mount the heatsink. The middle (blue) one is only a border to hold it in place and allow you to peel it off. The metal TIM should touch both the CPU heat spreader and the heatsink base. Its hard to tell from the pictures you took but it looks like you still have a layer of the protective plastic on. The process is kind of a pain, I had to read the instructions through about 5 times before I even attempted it, especially the parts about "stock clocks" and "thermal protection" biggrin.gif



tim.jpg
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