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Petition: Ivybridge i3 K series processor. - Page 6

Poll Results: Do you believe a market exists for a K series i3?

 
  • 27% (34)
    Yes.
  • 58% (72)
    Yes - I would be interested in purchasing one.
  • 13% (17)
    No - I don't believe a market exists.
123 Total Votes  
post #51 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

It wouldn't be too late at all for them, IB just dropped so they have plenty of time. Not to mention the only different between a K and non-K processor is the hardware lock on the multiplier, which they can choose to not do, so an i3K would be a very easy release for them, as they are still releasing IB processors even now.

But it's not like they are working on new IB chips up until the day before they are released. Intel is working on next gen stuff while the consumers just got the taste of something that has been years in the making. I think that it would be awesome if there was a i3K but I just don't see it happening now, unless it has already been announced.
Edited by Ovlazek - 6/28/12 at 3:16pm
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post #52 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovlazek View Post

But it's not like they are working on new IB chips up until the day before they are released. Intel is working on next gen stuff while the consumers just got the taste of something that has been years in the making. I think that it would be awesome if there was a i3K but I just don't see it happening now, unless it has already been announced.

I think you might be missing something, as an i3K wouldn't be a new chip, it wouldn't require any new engineering or other design changes. It would simply come down to the manufacturing process and if they decided to lock the multiplier or not. Years ago when manufacturers first started to really lock their processors the end user could do a simple modification to unlock it. A great one was using a conductive material to connect pins on AMD chips, thus unlocking it.

Any decision by Intel to not release an i3K wouldn't be due to a limitation in manufacturing or by design, but be a purely financial decision. Is there a strong enough market? Would it take away from the i5/i7 market (as people have been discussing)? Now as far as releasing it so "late" into Ivy, it could simply be done as another stepping or revision to their line, which has we all know revisions have been done in the past.
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post #53 of 62
i3 K wouldnt make any sense for Intel, it will cannibalize the sales of i5.

1. By releasing a i3 K Intel need to do further testing for the i3 processor itself. They cant just release i3 k on the fly without testing it running OCed.
2. AMD is being uncompetitive, while the 4 core bulldozer is capable to overclock, it is not being treatening enough to kill i3. it is a 4 CORE chip, it does not perform better than i3, and it sells @ the price of an i3.
3. i3 K is probably going to priced @ upper side of i3 like clarkdale. People who have bought i3 K will need to buy better motherboard to sustain OCing performance. Inthis case why not just buy a non K i5 and a H chipset motherboard?



if anything I needed, I would wish Intel releasing/manufacture i3 chip without a GPU on die to make die much smaller + also have more TDP headroom = i3 would have been able to clock higher @ 55w TDP. Smaller die also drop the manufacturing cost further and allowing Intel price i3 more aggressively killing off AMD for good.
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post #54 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocknut View Post

i3 K wouldnt make any sense for Intel, it will cannibalize the sales of i5.
1. By releasing a i3 K Intel need to do further testing for the i3 processor itself. They cant just release i3 k on the fly without testing it running OCed.
2. AMD is being uncompetitive, while the 4 core bulldozer is capable to overclock, it is not being treatening enough to kill i3. it is a 4 CORE chip, it does not perform better than i3, and it sells @ the price of an i3.
3. i3 K is probably going to priced @ upper side of i3 like clarkdale. People who have bought i3 K will need to buy better motherboard to sustain OCing performance. Inthis case why not just buy a non K i5 and a H chipset motherboard?
if anything I needed, I would wish Intel releasing/manufacture i3 chip without a GPU on die to make die much smaller + also have more TDP headroom = i3 would have been able to clock higher @ 55w TDP. Smaller die also drop the manufacturing cost further and allowing Intel price i3 more aggressively killing off AMD for good.

 

i3 2100's are only $90, I don't know how much more competitive you want them to get, that's cheaper than the dual module FX CPU.

post #55 of 62
Sorry to ruin the party:

The only way this will work for intel (possibility of them doing it) is if they lock the multiplier to...say 44-46 or if they make the price at $140-$180 along with (possibly) SOME reduced features, like no pcie 3.0 or hyper threading at a $10-15 premium. Otherwise intel is perfectly happy to keep them locked.

REALISTICALLY:

It would make the quad core i5 unlocked versions seem ridiculous price/performance wise for most tasks compared to an i3 dual core hyper-threaded, and not only for games in which the quad core i7 compared to the i5 is ridiculous price/performance wise especially when taking into account they will be able to overclock the same, if not better and a large majority of tasks are dual core and therefor a significant portion of users who will ask for a recommendation will otherwise be recommended the i3, as WOULD be the case on OCN, hence making them drop sales. A good point of this would be recycling of dies. They could release the i3's 2-3 months later like nVidia did with the 670 (a 680 gk104 with a bad cluster) and sell some quad-cores with a broken core-two at a cheaper price and unlocked instead of binning them.


However, the last large issue would be the 99% probability in HIGH loss of sales of their hxx platforms compared to their pxx-zxx platforms. For $15 more you can get a cpu with a 150% MINIMUM boost when paired with a $20+ cpu cooler and an extra $15-30 for a low price MODERATE QUALITY overclockable motherboard (don't need fancy vrms for a 4.6-8ghz dual core sandy/4.4-6 dual core ivy [especially with IVY and future CPU's]).

Frankly, I see no solution to this unless you implement some form of discount on hxx chip-sets but on the flip-side they're gaining some cash from people upgrading by spending an extra $40-50.
Edited by JassimH - 6/29/12 at 9:39pm
    
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post #56 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JassimH View Post

Sorry to ruin the party:
The only way this will work for intel (possibility of them doing it) is if they lock the multiplier to...say 44-46 or if they make the price at $140-$180 along with (possibly) SOME reduced features, like no pcie 3.0 or hyper threading at a $10-15 premium. Otherwise intel is perfectly happy to keep them locked..

I stopped reading after this just because I would like to clear up something.....

The IvyBridge Core i3 already has SEVERAL "reduced" features, I brought this up in a couple of posts, and have a list in one of them of the features i3 doesn't have that i5 and i7 do. To sum up the list...

IvyBridge i3 processors DO NOT have...

PCI-E 3.0 support
Intel vPro
Memory is 1066/1333, i5 and i7 actually list 1666 as supported.
New AES Instruction
Several virtulization technologies
No Turbo Boost

and a few others.

Intel is already creating market separation between the i3 and i5/i7, just by having the i3 name some people are going to pass on it. Others that are going more high end and pushing SLi and Crossfire will have to go i5/i7 with the new generation of cards, for the bandwidth. Another way to look at it, if the i3 had any potential to take from the i5 market, we would already be seeing it, but we aren't. People are buying non-K i5 processors over the i3, even people that don't need a true quad core. An i3K would be targeted at the budget enthusiast, much like the old extreme processors were targeted at the high end enthusiasts.
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post #57 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

I stopped reading after this just because I would like to clear up something.....
The IvyBridge Core i3 already has SEVERAL "reduced" features, I brought this up in a couple of posts, and have a list in one of them of the features i3 doesn't have that i5 and i7 do. To sum up the list...
IvyBridge i3 processors DO NOT have...
PCI-E 3.0 support
Intel vPro
Memory is 1066/1333, i5 and i7 actually list 1666 as supported.
New AES Instruction
Several virtulization technologies
No Turbo Boost
and a few others.
Intel is already creating market separation between the i3 and i5/i7, just by having the i3 name some people are going to pass on it. Others that are going more high end and pushing SLi and Crossfire will have to go i5/i7 with the new generation of cards, for the bandwidth. Another way to look at it, if the i3 had any potential to take from the i5 market, we would already be seeing it, but we aren't. People are buying non-K i5 processors over the i3, even people that don't need a true quad core. An i3K would be targeted at the budget enthusiast, much like the old extreme processors were targeted at the high end enthusiasts.

Dude, I know this and a few things - lets go through them in YOUR order 1 by 1.

Someone buying a dual core will most likely be using it for gaming, and will most likely have one GPU, let alone two powerful gpus. PCIE 3.0 in ivy bridge is currently not useful at-all as with one gpu, the most powerful so say a 7970/680 at 1.2-3ghz will not saturate a 16x link via pcie 2.0. Someone buying a dual core who would look into buying gpus able to saturate a 2.0 8x bus easily would be aiming for a quad core, so will have pcie 3.0 support.

Secondly, the dual core i3's are aimed at "mainstream" I want to watch a movie, and with the k series more towards I play games so vPro is not useful. I have never known anyone who has used "vPro" period who is a mainstream desktop user. Business will most likely NOT be purchasing i3's and that is the only target market I can see.

Ivy bridge lists it can only support 1600mhz but we all know most can run 2800mhz and some can run higher. Also normal sandy bridge only lists 1333mhz but it can run 2133mhz 100% of the time and some can get 2400mhz with some minor tweaks. Furthermore, IF SOMEONE IS BUYING A DUAL CORE TO SAVE COSTS THEY WILL NOT BE PURCHASING PERFORMANCE RAM WHICH WILL ADD A FRAME OR TWO WHILE COSTING 2-3 times as much. They will stick to 1600 ram as generally recommended here on OCN for "budget users". If you're getting a <$160 CPU you're not picking up a $200-$400 RAM KIT.

Small majority will be encrypting and I doubt the difference is over 30%, again useless for the POTENTIAL target market.

If you're overclocking I doubt you care about the performance aspects of turbo boost. Power-wise I assume they still have "speed step" and if not you won't be gaining much power savings from a dual core. % wise it seems like a lot but the wattage is much less than that of a quad/hex core and the frequencies don't change power too much anyway, it's the voltage.

Few others? All useless tbh.


I know all these features are missing.

I doubted intel would change their ivy lineup but in future revisions to keep this same "low cost" which people want, the only REALISTIC way intel will use a $135 price tag is if they ommit these features, especially pcie 3.0, for has/broadwell where they will actually be felt. This will mean that it really will target the "budget"/htpc high end market where people will use a third-fourth tier GPU opposed to a top tier one. I could use an unlocked ivy dual core at 4.6ghz with a single gtx 680 at 1314mhz like I currently used and only be losing up to 5-6 frames on most games on ultra. In the future I'd be bottlenecking my "high end" but my gtx 660ti or lower equivalent part wont be bottle-necked and I'll still have similar single-dual thread cpu performance if not better.

Realistic expectations in the future, continued omitted features which will be wanted more in the future, or a closer to $150-$200 price tag with the features.

Intel will NOT change their ivy lineup pricing/advertising/oem deals/manufacturing to incorporate an unlocked ivy cpu part. The best we can all hope for is one in haswell in which the price will be more than a "$15 premium" or will continue to not have the one-two important features which will convince us to buy the quad cores - such as pcie 3.0 and possibly higher ram speeds if the new architecture is tweaked in a way where it improves cpu performance substantially (i.e. even more as was done two generations ago).



Consider reading this if you actually hoped for one and to understand my point.



TL;DR:

Intel will not release an unlocked ivy.

Your features do NOT matter for the target market ATM AT ALL.

My points apply to the next generation haswell cpus where if intel listen they might incorporate an unlocked dual core - they will still be missing the only important features (pcie 3.0 possibly and possibly ram if the haswell architecture rely's on it/gets more performance from better ram which is a doubt) - or prepare for a higher price - not the wanted $135.






Edit reply to your last paragraph: I guarantee the people who cannot afford the UNLOCKED QUAD CORE I5's would snap on these unlocked i3s. As would any informed i3 user, especially if it had the "same features with a $15 premium". This is with regards to a "what-if" scenario based of the current ivy-bridge and sandy bridge cpus.


In 2013-14 if games become more threaded and intel release an unlocked dual core, you'll see the $15 premium. If things stay the same-ish to an extent, and intel release the cpu, you'll see reduced features which will make a difference then, such as pcie 3.0 as I've said three times now, or you'll see a slightly higher say roughly $50 premium. Otherwise it would undercut the MAJORITY of their i5 market so any informed user would snap it up, along with the "persuaded" amd buyers.
Edited by JassimH - 6/29/12 at 11:40pm
    
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post #58 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JassimH View Post

Dude, I know this and a few things - lets go through them in YOUR order 1 by 1.
Someone buying a dual core will most likely be using it for gaming, and will most likely have one GPU, let alone two powerful gpus. PCIE 3.0 in ivy bridge is currently not useful at-all as with one gpu, the most powerful so say a 7970/680 at 1.2-3ghz will not saturate a 16x link via pcie 2.0. Someone buying a dual core who would look into buying gpus able to saturate a 2.0 8x bus easily would be aiming for a quad core, so will have pcie 3.0 support.
Secondly, the dual core i3's are aimed at "mainstream" I want to watch a movie, and with the k series more towards I play games so vPro is not useful. I have never known anyone who has used "vPro" period who is a mainstream desktop user. Business will most likely NOT be purchasing i3's and that is the only target market I can see.
Ivy bridge lists it can only support 1600mhz but we all know most can run 2800mhz and some can run higher. Also normal sandy bridge only lists 1333mhz but it can run 2133mhz 100% of the time and some can get 2400mhz with some minor tweaks. Furthermore, IF SOMEONE IS BUYING A DUAL CORE TO SAVE COSTS THEY WILL NOT BE PURCHASING PERFORMANCE RAM WHICH WILL ADD A FRAME OR TWO WHILE COSTING 2-3 times as much. They will stick to 1600 ram as generally recommended here on OCN for "budget users". If you're getting a <$160 CPU you're not picking up a $200-$400 RAM KIT.
Small majority will be encrypting and I doubt the difference is over 30%, again useless for the POTENTIAL target market.
If you're overclocking I doubt you care about the performance aspects of turbo boost. Power-wise I assume they still have "speed step" and if not you won't be gaining much power savings from a dual core. % wise it seems like a lot but the wattage is much less than that of a quad/hex core and the frequencies don't change power too much anyway, it's the voltage.
Few others? All useless tbh.
I know all these features are missing.
I doubted intel would change their ivy lineup but in future revisions to keep this same "low cost" which people want, the only REALISTIC way intel will use a $135 price tag is if they ommit these features, especially pcie 3.0, for has/broadwell where they will actually be felt. This will mean that it really will target the "budget"/htpc high end market where people will use a third-fourth tier GPU opposed to a top tier one. I could use an unlocked ivy dual core at 4.6ghz with a single gtx 680 at 1314mhz like I currently used and only be losing up to 5-6 frames on most games on ultra. In the future I'd be bottlenecking my "high end" but my gtx 660ti or lower equivalent part wont be bottle-necked and I'll still have similar single-dual thread cpu performance if not better.
Realistic expectations in the future, continued omitted features which will be wanted more in the future, or a closer to $150-$200 price tag with the features.
Intel will NOT change their ivy lineup pricing/advertising/oem deals/manufacturing to incorporate an unlocked ivy cpu part. The best we can all hope for is one in haswell in which the price will be more than a "$15 premium" or will continue to not have the one-two important features which will convince us to buy the quad cores - such as pcie 3.0 and possibly higher ram speeds if the new architecture is tweaked in a way where it improves cpu performance substantially (i.e. even more as was done two generations ago).
Consider reading this if you actually hoped for one and to understand my point.

TL;DR:
Intel will not release an unlocked ivy.
Your features do NOT matter for the target market ATM AT ALL.
My points apply to the next generation haswell cpus where if intel listen they might incorporate an unlocked dual core - they will still be missing the only important features (pcie 3.0 possibly and possibly ram if the haswell architecture rely's on it/gets more performance from better ram which is a doubt) - or prepare for a higher price - not the wanted $135.
Edit reply to your last paragraph: I guarantee the people who cannot afford the UNLOCKED QUAD CORE I5's would snap on these unlocked i3s. As would any informed i3 user, especially if it had the "same features with a $15 premium". This is with regards to a "what-if" scenario based of the current ivy-bridge and sandy bridge cpus.
In 2013-14 if games become more threaded and intel release an unlocked dual core, you'll see the $15 premium. If things stay the same-ish to an extent, and intel release the cpu, you'll see reduced features which will make a difference then, such as pcie 3.0 as I've said three times now, or you'll see a slightly higher say roughly $50 premium. Otherwise it would undercut the MAJORITY of their i5 market so any informed user would snap it up, along with the "persuaded" amd buyers.

No need for hostilities, and honestly your formatting made reading what you said difficult.

In either case, I am well aware that most of the features that i3 lacks do not matter to the average customer, but that isn't the point. People don't buy based off what they actually need and what is going to be useful, people like to see a large list of features, even without understanding them, and buy that. What it boils down to is marketing material, plain and simple. If people actually purchased what they needed, and nothing more, sales of i5 and i7 processors would be in the gutter, sales of GTX 680's would be in the gutter, people wouldn't be purchasing 3 displays to run in Surround/Eyefinity. People like flash and sparkle, bragging rights!
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post #59 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

No need for hostilities, and honestly your formatting made reading what you said difficult.
In either case, I am well aware that most of the features that i3 lacks do not matter to the average customer, but that isn't the point. People don't buy based off what they actually need and what is going to be useful, people like to see a large list of features, even without understanding them, and buy that. What it boils down to is marketing material, plain and simple. If people actually purchased what they needed, and nothing more, sales of i5 and i7 processors would be in the gutter, sales of GTX 680's would be in the gutter, people wouldn't be purchasing 3 displays to run in Surround/Eyefinity. People like flash and sparkle, bragging rights!

I agree with you with things like I CAN RUN THREE DISPLAYS WOO!! Which mgiht have gotten people to buy a 6950/70 over 570 in the past. I HAVE NEVER SEEN PEOPLE GO OMG I HAVE TURBO BOOST ON MY UNLOCKED CPU.

I have never seen people go I HAVE A $160 CPU BUT I ALSO HAVE A $500 MOTHERBOARD AND A $240 RAM KIT - I'M A BOSS.

I have never seen people go, MY CPU CAN USE VIRTULISATION.

The proper features yes are useful and have bragging rights, not the features a current i3 forgoes over a current i5/i7.

Otherwise I'm on your side 100% thumb.gif
    
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post #60 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by anubis1127 View Post

i3 2100's are only $90, I don't know how much more competitive you want them to get, that's cheaper than the dual module FX CPU.
there is still room to drop below $90. How about removing the GPU die and sell it @ $60. Smaller die give exponential better yield + more chips per wafer. The removal of GPU also release TDP headroom, allow i3 to clock higher @ 55w TDP. All together $60. rolleyes.gif or maybe they can just sell i5 without GPU die.

thats pretty much kill AMD all together.
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