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post #2851 of 4012
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod717 View Post

I definitely want to push the envelope and exactly why I'm concerned about heat. Don't think I'd be happy with 4.4-4.6. As the person below stated, Haswell doesn't look much better where heat is concerned. Read a few pre-release reviews and saw benches from Asia. Intel is still using tim instead of solder. Only real increase in performance was video. Also $229 for a new 3770k from microcenter is mighty tempting. I'd rather pay a little more and get a new sandy if I can get a higher overall clock and better performance. It's a toss up at this point. I've been through my fare share of cpu's and upgrades. Just want to settle on something I can live with for a while.
This.
Until people actually have Haswell builds and start to oc it, we won’t really know. If we assume it is TIM again, which is what we thought before, then most will just delid it. The base performance has never been seen as much better, but because of BLCK there seems to be an assumption of better oc ability.

To say you want to push the envelope but not delid, doesn’t really go together for Ivy. The MC price is great, that is why I have two, but both are delidded. But in real life it is not like many people can tell the difference between 4.5 and 4.8.

One of my chips had better than average temps pre-delid, but even with that I couldn’t do more than 4.6 because of temps. I was able to go up 200 MHz and at the same time lower my temps by delidding. I am not sure there are many Ivy chips out there that are being run over 4.6 without delidding. As far as Sandy goes, since they did not use TIM, there is no delidding and better temps, but you have to be more careful with voltage because while Ivy is pretty tough it is not hard to degrade Sandy if you are not careful.
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post #2852 of 4012
Thanks for the info. I know if I get an Ivy it will only be a matter of time until shrinkage in my nethers subsides and I go for it and delid. Just like pushing past 1.5v with my 8350 and numerous other firsts.
Actually there has been a lot of oc'ing and stats on Asian sites. If you look around here on ocn, you'll find similar conversations. Actually found a link on another thread of 4770k on sale already. http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=7777bc3c17029328d03146e0ed767841&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overclock.net%2Ft%2F1391513%2Fhaswell-4770k-4670k-in-stock&v=1&libId=73ed28ef-53f0-41dd-b30b-06403411d2ad&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pcconnection.com%2FIPA%2FShop%2FProduct%2FDetail.htm%3Fsku%3D15538268%26cac%3DResult&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overclock.net%2Fnewsearch%3Fsearch%3Dhaswell&title=Haswell%204770K%20%26%204670K%20IN%20STOCK&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pcconnection.com%2FIPA%2FShop%2FProduct%2FDetail.htm%3Fsku%3D15538268%26amp%3Bcac%3DResult&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13687520130789

Think you and I just talked me into going for Ivy!

I enjoy the thrill of oc'ing even if I don't notice a difference between 4.4 and 4.8, but I'm looking for 5ghz tongue.gif
Edited by hotrod717 - 5/16/13 at 6:04pm
    
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post #2853 of 4012
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod717 View Post

Anyone know if there are differences between maximus v formula and maximus v/ assassin other than game being included? Doesn't make sense that the assassin is cheaper and includes game. Is there a difference in component quality? Different caps? Factory 2nds?Just doesn't seem to make sense
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanoldman View Post

Mine too.
No difference. I got the AC3 one since I didn’t have the game, but there is no other difference. If the AC3 one is on sale they probably just want to move stock with Haswell on the way. This socket is now dead, so they need to sell what they can.

I have seen strange stuff like that before too, with the FTW 670 cheaper than the standard 670 because one was on sale.

Actually, there's a very good reason for this - I found the same thing when I went to purchase a Samsung 840 SSD... it was $209 by itself or $169 with a full copy of FarCry3. Kind of a no-brainer even if I hadn't wanted to play FC3! biggrin.gif The simple answer is subsidized-cost marketing. Same reason an unlocked iPhone costs $650 but a contract-tied one is $200... the carrier is simply paying the difference (of course they pay less because they pay for thousands per month). Also same concept as store coupons or circulars - you save money, and the company's marketing department learns which publications and areas their best target demographic has interest in... thus saving them many times that amount in wasted marketing efforts in the future. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanoldman View Post

You don’t want to wait a few weeks for Haswell? That is what I would do. When it is out and we see what it can (or can’t do) then you can decide to get that or stick with Ivy or Sandy.

Ivy gets real hot, and it likes cold, so if you want a higher oc as in over 4.5 then delidding is pretty much the only choice. With the hammer and vise method, delidding is safer now, but I understand if people don’t want to do it.

A 360 rad will do fine for Ivy, and obviously for Sandy, but your Ivy temps will keep you to a 4.4 to 4.6 oc on it depending on your luck in the silicon lottery.

If you don’t mind buying used then that is another reason to wait for Haswell since I figure people will be selling Ivy and Sandy to get it.

It really depends on the chip, but I've had no issues getting decent OCs without delidding... better ones could be had on the chips I've tested with delidding naturally, but I had no problems keeping 3 different 3570K OC'd to 4.6-4.8GHz and I think I can get my 3770K to 5GHz without it... Granted I have more cooling, but not that much more (running 2 UT60s, push-only with 2 7970's in the loop as well as the CPU). Naturally, everyone's tolerance for part failure is different, but I personally don't think anything at all of an Ivy CPU running at ~80C across all cores under load - or 90C in IBT loops. I haven't ever kept a CPU for more than a year in my life, I've run most if not all of them at their thermal and voltage limits (engineering limits - not the physical limit, like LN2 people go for). I've yet to have a CPU fail before (have a cabinet full of perfectly functional Pentium III's, Opterons, and even a Prescott that could literally fry eggs).

I'm probably not the best indicator for what's "prudent" in computing (I expense much of my hardware through my work, have 6-10 systems at any one time, and often buy 4-5 CPUs of a generation and sell off the one's I don't like - or put them in stock-clocked PCs to sell or use at the office). That being said - these chips are every bit as durable as the Sandy's IMO... possibly not as voltage tolerant due to the smaller fab process, but I've got one in my workstation at the office that's running 4.5GHz on an H100 rolleyes.gif at 1.37V vCore (my first/worst of the i5's) and it regularly stays in the 60's for hours every day. Haven't had any instability so far and it's been running like this 6 months so far. It's still 12H prime-stable at these settings so no leakage so far. This chip actually had the pump get disconnected during my initial setup and OC sessions... had the system shutdown when the CPU hit 113C... figured that was it... let it sit for a few minutes, connected the pump again and ziptied the power connection down so it couldn't happen again... rebooted and did a 24H prime cycle followed by a 30 min IBT cycle... no errors at all and no additional voltage required. biggrin.gif

Of course, it could blow up tomorrow... but at this point I doubt it.


EDIT: Just re-read... to clarify.. I have dozens of CPUs that are much older than 1 year - many in systems that are used constantly... I just never keep the one in my MAIN PC for longer than that... tongue.gif
Edited by DiGiCiDAL - 5/17/13 at 6:07am
post #2854 of 4012
^Most people have standard range cooling, and Ivy is less stable at higher heat. You can confirm this by getting a chip stable at 75c stress testing temps, then turn down your cooling and let the testing temps go into the 90s. You will most likely generate WHEA errors, and therefore I use a rule of thumb to keep my stress testing temps to 80c or below which gives me normal use temps of 60c or below.

I have looked at many, many Ivy ocs and with standard level cooling there are exceptionally few chips than can do over 4.6 for a 24/7 setting with decent temps. Also, according to the pro benchers here, Ivy is tougher and can handle voltage better than Sandy, but you have to keep Ivy’s temps in control. With great temps you can run 1.45 to 1.5v with Ivy, but that is a bad idea with Sandy.

As you rightly point out, everyone’s level of risk tolerance for excessive electromigration is different, just as everyone’s definition of stable is different. Being reasonably conservative with temps the vast majority of non delidded chips will be in the 4.4 to 4.6 area.
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post #2855 of 4012
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanoldman View Post

As you rightly point out, everyone’s level of risk tolerance for excessive electromigration is different, just as everyone’s definition of stable is different. Being reasonably conservative with temps the vast majority of non delidded chips will be in the 4.4 to 4.6 area.

Yep, that sounds like my experience almost exactly... worst 3570K took 1.43V to get to 4.6GHz - best did same speed at only 1.27V (and obviously was much, much cooler at the same time)! He's definitely not 'standard level cooling' with a 360 dedicated to the CPU only however, so I think he'll be fine pushing the envelope. Plus, every one of my Ivy's was better than the one before it (at least voltage-wise per OC level) so getting one this late in production should yield good results unless you really miss the silicon lottery.
post #2856 of 4012
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiGiCiDAL View Post

Yep, that sounds like my experience almost exactly... worst 3570K took 1.43V to get to 4.6GHz - best did same speed at only 1.27V (and obviously was much, much cooler at the same time)! He's definitely not 'standard level cooling' with a 360 dedicated to the CPU only however, so I think he'll be fine pushing the envelope. Plus, every one of my Ivy's was better than the one before it (at least voltage-wise per OC level) so getting one this late in production should yield good results unless you really miss the silicon lottery.
Yeah standard cooling doesn't quite apply. I have an RX360, MCP320, RS240, and 2 MCP120's, 4 Res'., 2 D5's, ect,ect. I don't use all of them at the moment. Kind of an evolution. I'm actually going to dedicate RX360 for cpu, MCP320 to GPU, and place the RS240 in there somewhere to cool vrms. This will definitely be final build for a little while. rolleyes.gif Hopefully. Heading to Microcenter tomorrow to pick up 3770k and not quite sure if I'll get the Formula or Extreme from there or Newegg. I like that the Formula already has option for water on the vrms. I've been pretty lucky with chips( knocks on wood) and hopefully this one will be decent. However, I did go through many Phenom II's cherry picking the best ones and reselling the others. With Haswell coming out, Ivy may drop even more in price and afford the opportunity to do just that. Hopefully, I'll luck out and get a decent one to start!
    
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post #2857 of 4012
Quote:
Originally Posted by feznz View Post

Two problems,

The rear plate will have to be cut down to a single slot, this will be almost impossible if there is a DVI-D plug located there but straight forward if it is only a vent.

Does the 3rd PCI-e slot operate when there are GPU's in slot 1 & 2 ( I am unsure if it is automatically disabled when slot 2 is occupied and is unclear in the manual)

there is another 2 options
get a Mini PCI-e to PCI-e cable adapter and remove the Wi-Fi card
Or get a USB sound card

no need to cut down the plate. i'll be replacing it with a single i/o plate from ek smile.gif and afaik the mini pcie slot won't be disabled tongue.gif just need to know if the soundcard will fit if i go crossfire with 2 liquid cooled 7950s as I already have a xonar phoebus smile.gif

here's my planned setup: red line - liquid cooled 7950 in crossfire, blue line - asus xonar phoebus



Intel(R) JPEG Library, version 1,5,4,36

is this possible? i'm just worried that i won't be able to fit in the soundcard.
Edited by Hsien - 5/17/13 at 7:51pm
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post #2858 of 4012
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod717 View Post

Yeah standard cooling doesn't quite apply. I have an RX360, MCP320, RS240, and 2 MCP120's, 4 Res'., 2 D5's, ect,ect. I don't use all of them at the moment. Kind of an evolution. I'm actually going to dedicate RX360 for cpu, MCP320 to GPU, and place the RS240 in there somewhere to cool vrms. This will definitely be final build for a little while. rolleyes.gif Hopefully. Heading to Microcenter tomorrow to pick up 3770k and not quite sure if I'll get the Formula or Extreme from there or Newegg. I like that the Formula already has option for water on the vrms. I've been pretty lucky with chips( knocks on wood) and hopefully this one will be decent. However, I did go through many Phenom II's cherry picking the best ones and reselling the others. With Haswell coming out, Ivy may drop even more in price and afford the opportunity to do just that. Hopefully, I'll luck out and get a decent one to start!

Naturally, your rig = your rules... but as a suggestion, if you put all of those rads into a single loop with everything, you'd most likely get better headroom on everything. Lots of people have tested multiple loops vs single loop configurations and seen no difference or even reduced capacity. I like the look and the concept of multi-loop setups but in all honesty if you got a dual-D5 pumped single loop with the RX360, MCP320 and RS240 combined... you'd probably see a lower delta (mostly because the VRMs don't even really need 120mm of rad cooling on a Z77 board... I don't see anything too extreme and mine are passive).

As an added bonus you'd have redundancy if one of your pumps were to fail... you'd just lose half your flow/pressure, but still be cooling everything... Add to that the fact that if you're not gaming/benching the GPU(s) - you'll have that much more capacity for the CPU... and vice-versa. Food for thought at least. smile.gif
post #2859 of 4012
OMG swiftech komodo blocks are damn sexy..still in the dark if i could fit a soundcard when i crossfire 2 hd7950s on my maximus v gene though..hope someone can help. for the meantime im gonna ask my cousin to go hunt the swiftechs for me.
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post #2860 of 4012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hsien View Post

no need to cut down the plate. i'll be replacing it with a single i/o plate from ek smile.gif and afaik the mini pcie slot won't be disabled tongue.gif just need to know if the soundcard will fit if i go crossfire with 2 liquid cooled 7950s as I already have a xonar phoebus smile.gif

here's my planned setup: red line - liquid cooled 7950 in crossfire, blue line - asus xonar phoebus

is this possible? i'm just worried that i won't be able to fit in the soundcard.

I think you have answered your own question as everything is single slot configuration

BTW the slots are;
2 x PCIe 3.0/2.0 x16 (x16 or dual x8, red) *2
1 x PCIe 2.0 x4 (black)
1 x mini-PCIe 2.0 x1(top mPCIe Combo expansion card)

I agree with DiGiCiDAL single loop is so much simpler and cheaper weather it is better than multiple loops is debatable but I would say my single loop preforms to my expectations, a separate loop for the VRMs is really not a cost efficient way of doing it.
Edited by feznz - 5/18/13 at 1:03am
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