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Pipe bending 101 - Page 91

post #901 of 2160
Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Higher flow doesnt impact negatively,it just ceases to increase significantly.

^this will be the governing case and principle for stuff of the scale of a pc loop, see below for reasoning (it can be too fast but those flow speeds will be hard to reach if the loop was done in a sane manner lol)


Flow being too fast or slow was meant as "within reason" guys, its all about a BALANCE and yes you can have it too fast or too slow. The flow speed does affect the rate at which heat is transferred from the block to the water. A block may have massive surface area to absorb heat, but if the water channel going through it is singular and tiny then the interactive area is small and the dissipation into the water will be bad. This is why some blocks when disassembled have a square grid of small channels that the water is forced through (it increases the surface contact area of water to the block.

Is it more important to have more surface area vs. finding a flow speed balance? YES this is why block selection is something people scrutinize over for much longer periods of time. The point was all things need to be considered because they play separate roles. how much weight you assign each factor in the pursuit of the perfect matching balance for you, is up to you thumb.gif

If your tube is too small (which isn't such an issue here) but with a very strong pump you may get the fluid moving so fast you cause cavitation---->turbulence in the water causing air to come out of solution in the water if you have enough pressure in the line to hit the water's vapor pressure. Practically this can be as small an issue as having your loop be noisy, or as bad as having it degrade your pumps impeller over time and reduce its function ( ie if you pit the impeller from excess turbulence in the loop it will always be noisy due to reduced efficiency even if you reduce the speeds later)
Edited by oats2012 - 3/31/13 at 1:42pm
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post #902 of 2160
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

I think higher flow is desirable. I don't think that the flow can ever be too fast. But the problem is the pumps. As the flow increases, you also increase the pump's heat output and that heat gets dumped into the loop, especially with a D5 pump.
And soon, the small performance increase from the flow will be voided by the pump's heat dump.

But if you could somehow have no heat dump from the pump, then I don't think the flow would ever be too much.

Think of it this way, a cold day will feel a lot colder if it's windy. Increase the wind (air flow) and you increase the heat absorption of the air. Same with water.

this is very true about heat dump balance, and a good example of wind chill factor effect. the flow can be too fast for one simple concept though.... boundary layer within the pipes wall. if moving to fast there will be a very fast moving central core of fluid in the pipe and a boundry layer (which is always present) at the pipe wall that will grow to be large enough to where the difference between the two speeds is so high that the heat interchange is affected. The boundry layer has almost zero motion (all the time) but the middle will have a large motion comparatively.

But in lower flow states the boundary layer is small (only a few molecules thick) so the fast flow of the core knocks out and replaces these molecules quickly and thus the heat is exchanged fast. In high flow states the gradient between he two becomes large and the boundary layer grows large ( think of it this way its inertia, the faster the middle wants to go the more the particles involved will want to be lazy and stay as still as they can and resist the motion, so they try to form a larger motionless boundary layer.....other factors of friction etc are involved in the forming process but this is the basic premise)

your windy day example was a good one but is what is known as "open channel flow" and doesn't directly apply to closed channel flow. in that scenario you have an unlimited supply of fresh fluid flowing past a point to absorb heat which doesn't have to hit equilibrium in a closed setting.

a closed setting think about it like blood pumping (not the best example but cant think of a better one). At lower pump rates and flow rates the heart is most efficient thus it pumps and moves slowly to try and exchange the oxygen. when you are running the oxygen needed is increased, but the heat beat and flow rate takes massive jumps that are not necessarily what is needed to transfer the needed oxygen. its a less efficient state of exchange because the blood is flowing maybe too fast for the cells to pick up the oxygen. The body thinks pumping faster is the answer so it does but in reality the increase in speed doesn't need to be nearly as high. case in point is pro athletes, there bodies run at max efficiency. Other factors like muscle mass etc are involved but even at high stress loads their heart rates don't go as high as many average joes will. this is because their bodies fine tuned the balance of flow rate to exchange rate in the closed circulatory system.

thats not the prime example because biology is more complex than basic thermo but driving principles apply.

The end result though? yes you can have flow that is too high, will it be attainable in a system the size of a pc? probably not unless you have dual d5 feeding into a y joint with a 1/4" ID constriction (ie basically something nobody sane would try because the pressure would be nuts)

you're much better off picking a good block and a decent pump, tube size is at your discretion for aesthetics. I just wanted to address principles, but everyone's choices can be what they want with the info smile.gif because like i said I've yet to begin my pipe bending adventure lol biggrin.gif

EDIT: I'm done mega posting, not trying high jack or derail so the info is here if you want now. I'm content to just lurk around for pics and other practical info now biggrin.gif
Edited by oats2012 - 3/31/13 at 1:17pm
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post #903 of 2160
Thread Starter 
You are talking about laminar flow?
It only really applies to rads for our purposes,tubing is not the dissipation point,you are right in saying its an undesirable characteristic tho....

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post #904 of 2160
I ranted for so long i don't know what I'm trying to talk about anymore lol. Yeah laminar flow is needed throughout, but mainly this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation. turbulence in the pipes leaving at the pump before it gets to other parts of the loop (such as the radiator) is what i see as a POTENTIAL issue. This is what I'd bet money on is the reason that people depending on pump choice find it to be super noisy

if a loop is well bled of air (its much harder to cavitate when the air has to truly be taken out of solution with the water), it shouldn't be an issue because our flow speeds aren't (or shouldnt) be high enough to cause it I'd think (but im not familair with the flow rates of popular pc pumps) but i bet if you crank a hefty pump to full with a small loop with pipe diameter that is small it could be done pretty easily

EDIT: I wasn't trying to say the tubes do the dissipating, if it came out that way my apologies lol doh.gif
Edited by oats2012 - 3/31/13 at 2:28pm
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post #905 of 2160
I'm now through with my copper pipes. I want to send a big thanks to B NEG for starting this post and sharing his expertise on a subject I'd long been interested in.
Also a shout out to all the other OCN members who shared their investigation, work, and success in all things hard tubing related.

No doubt over time I'll be modding my setup, because I just like to tinker and try to get better at things.
post #906 of 2160
I can't get over how, in pictures, it doesn't look very much difference between 3/8" and 1/2" but when I see them in person, there's a big difference to me.
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post #907 of 2160
Just have to say wow amazing info there oats2012 combine your information and B Negatives guide on binding pipe and we can all have superb watercooling builds. +Rep to both of you guys. thumb.gif

B,

For some reason I thought I had already repped you before, but apparently I must have been day dreaming rolleyes.gif
post #908 of 2160
I've updated my build with the MettleAir 3/8" OD fittings and some 3/8" OD copper "utility" pipe from Home Depot with no leaks so far. The fitting threads are only a touch (~1cm) longer than my XSPC extension fittings, yet won't work with 45 or 90 degree fittings that I have.
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post #909 of 2160
That seems like an awesome find, superericla.
    
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post #910 of 2160
Quote:
Originally Posted by superericla View Post

I've updated my build with the MettleAir 3/8" OD fittings and some 3/8" OD copper "utility" pipe from Home Depot with no leaks so far. The fitting threads are only a touch (~1cm) longer than my XSPC extension fittings, yet won't work with 45 or 90 degree fittings that I have.

Thanks for posting your success with the Mettleair fittings.

The base of the fittings internally are made so as to be tightened with a 6mm hex wrench, which means of course the opening is a bit smaller than the ID of the tubing.
For a test I set one of the fittings up in a vise and bored the bottom of the fitting out with a 3/8" bit, leaving a little shoulder as a stop for the tubing. This should increase the flow a little bit over the hex 6mm opening.
Whether or not it's worth it is up to you of course. Bottom one is stock fitting.
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