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Arch Removes the AIF (the Arch Installation Framework) - Page 6

post #51 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I've installed it on ~20'ish machines so far and each one went perfectly.
why'd you try to use grub if you don't like it anyways =o
It was in your guide. I couldn't be arsed to go back and find a guide for syslinux redface.gif
I'm about 99% sure I know what the problem was though - I think the KVM virtio devices weren't registering properly. But it's really not worth my time trying to fix when Debian will load up in 10mins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Honestly no need for it once you get used to the new way, much quicker to just type the few simple commands in tongue.gif
Also updated my guide @ 3am a day or two ago for the few that may be interested ( could of swore I mentioned it somewhere else, I was really tired that night and started talking to myself wave2.gif)
You say that, but I spend all day of my working life building, installing and fixing broken Linux / Solaris builds. The draw of Arch was it took very little effort to keep running, but these days it's undergone so many fundamental changes that it's taking more and more effort to keep a clean system. So I think I'll just wait out the storm for now and use Debian. Then, once my Debian servers are due for an upgrade I'll hope back over to Arch.
post #52 of 75
Getting a laptop soon, so will be trying this out. I like that you can now install GRUB 2 though.

AIF didn't really play well with SSDs did it? Like I was reading cfdsk doesn't work with TRIM I think, then legacy GRUB wouldn't work with what ever that did to my SSD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transhour View Post

i'll look into it, I need a side project, getting bored smile.gif

Maybe you could be the new maintainer for AIF. tongue.gif
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post #53 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post


I've installed it on ~20'ish machines so far and each one went perfectly.
why'd you try to use grub if you don't like it anyways =o
Honestly no need for it once you get used to the new way, much quicker to just type the few simple commands in tongue.gif
Also updated my guide @ 3am a day or two ago for the few that may be interested ( could of swore I mentioned it somewhere else, I was really tired that night and started talking to myself wave2.gif)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post


What about forking the current one? Most of the basic functionality is still there tongue.gif

 

AIF always screwed with me, never got it to work but once :). most of the time i would just use a ubuntu persistant usb, and install arch from there, and browse or watch a movie while it was downloading the packages.

 

I'll check out what mess they have for AIF now, before i start one from scratch, but as a general rule, i don't care much for modify other people's code (their bad habits, and my bad habits clash :)).

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post #54 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

It was in your guide. I couldn't be arsed to go back and find a guide for syslinux redface.gif
I'm about 99% sure I know what the problem was though - I think the KVM virtio devices weren't registering properly. But it's really not worth my time trying to fix when Debian will load up in 10mins

Ah, well it could be the guide... I was kind of laying on my keyboard by the time I was done. tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

You say that, but I spend all day of my working life building, installing and fixing broken Linux / Solaris builds. The draw of Arch was it took very little effort to keep running, but these days it's undergone so many fundamental changes that it's taking more and more effort to keep a clean system. So I think I'll just wait out the storm for now and use Debian. Then, once my Debian servers are due for an upgrade I'll hope back over to Arch.

Yeah I've noticed a lot of changes lately as well. And I ended up trying and getting rid of my Debian install for now, at least till wheezy is finally released. Squeeze won't work with my wireless, and my upgrade didn't go so well, it worked but there were problems. So I'm back to using Arch on my laptop for the time being. Still seems to work better for me than any others the majority of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transhour View Post


AIF always screwed with me, never got it to work but once smile.gif. most of the time i would just use a ubuntu persistant usb, and install arch from there, and browse or watch a movie while it was downloading the packages.

I'll check out what mess they have for AIF now, before i start one from scratch, but as a general rule, i don't care much for modify other people's code (their bad habits, and my bad habits clash smile.gif).

I can see where you come from with that, I'm pretty OCD about my code, lol.
Edited by Shrak - 9/3/12 at 3:15pm
post #55 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transhour View Post


AIF always screwed with me, never got it to work but once smile.gif. most of the time i would just use a ubuntu persistant usb, and install arch from there, and browse or watch a movie while it was downloading the packages.
AIF always worked beautifully for me. In truth, I never really understood why people had so many problems with it; yet the complaints were common. I guess I've just been lucky with it smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Ah, well it could be the guide... I was kind of laying on my keyboard by the time I was done. tongue.gif
Nar, I'm fairly certain it's the virtio playing havoc. I will say one thing about your guide though - there's a number of typos in (ect instead of etc, install spelt with 1 'l'). But I think they're forgiveable given the circumstances (and the fact that I'm too lazy to write guides myself so can hardly criticise any of yours laugher.gif ). But in all seriousness, I really don't think it was your guides fault thumb.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Yeah I've noticed a lot of changes lately as well. And I ended up trying and getting rid of my Debian install for now, at least till wheezy is finally released. Squeeze won't work with my wireless, and my upgrade didn't go so well, it worked but there were problems. So I'm back to using Arch on my laptop for the time being. Still seems to work better for me than any others the majority of the time.
Indeed. Arch is still running smoothly on my home laptop and work PC. No complaints there. I'm just in the process of building a new server so I'm thinking Debian is probably a better fit anyway (I would install FreeBSD, but I'm so lax in doing system updates on FreeBSD for some reason. At least with Debian, I'd remember to do the security updates, if nothing else).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I can see where you come from with that, I'm pretty OCD about my code, lol.
+1 here too
post #56 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

I care about how stable it runs and how it is to maintain.
Which is entirely a user space discussion and thus doesn't really matter if it runs bare metal or not.

Hardly, I've had plenty of random issues in various Distros that only appear bare-metal, or in a VM but not in the other. (eg. Win8 refuses to boot in Virtualbox but runs fine off my 500GB drive, aforementioned network drivers, etc)
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post #57 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Hardly, I've had plenty of random issues in various Distros that only appear bare-metal, or in a VM but not in the other. (eg. Win8 refuses to boot in Virtualbox but runs fine off my 500GB drive, aforementioned network drivers, etc)

Windows 8 isn't remotely like Linux, so that's a terrible example. And you're taking that quote out of context.

I was saying that Linux distros all use pretty much the same kernel and drivers, thus they're going to have roughly the same compatibility / issues when running in VMs or bare metal when compared to another Linux distro (ie if distro x with kernel 3.4.x doesn't detect vbox audio, then distro y with the same kernel probably wont either). Granted if distro x is running a different version kernel to distro y, then you could start seeing compatibility differences, but you can manually compile kernels, side-load Linux and do all sorts to work around this. Not to mention that the problem will go away when when the older distro will be updated to the newer one anyway.

This is why I said it's the user space that makes up the real difference in usability between the different Linuxes. And user space would largely not care whether your running bare metal or virtualised; with the exception of Xorg drivers such as human interface devices, but again, those can easily be installed / replaced if needed.

Furthermore, OS maintenance is purely an administration task, it makes no difference what-so-ever what the underlying hardware is. That is unless you've some how found a version of Linux who's "passwd", "groupadd" and other such sys admin commands, only work on physical processors on odd hours of the day and virtualised CPUs on even hours of the day tongue.gif But in all seriousness, hardware should be largely transparent to the user in terms of maintenance as it will be the same tools calling the same APIs / ABIs - it's only at that stage where the kernel will translate the instructions for the respective hardware - be that virtual or physical.
Edited by Plan9 - 9/4/12 at 12:12am
post #58 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Hardly, I've had plenty of random issues in various Distros that only appear bare-metal, or in a VM but not in the other. (eg. Win8 refuses to boot in Virtualbox but runs fine off my 500GB drive, aforementioned network drivers, etc)

Windows 8 isn't remotely like Linux, so that's a terrible example. And you're taking that quote out of context.

I was saying that Linux distros all use pretty much the same kernel and drivers, thus they're going to have roughly the same compatibility / issues when running in VMs or bare metal when compared to another Linux distro (ie if distro x with kernel 3.4.x doesn't detect vbox audio, then distro y with the same kernel probably wont either). Granted if distro x is running a different version kernel to distro y, then you could start seeing compatibility differences, but you can manually compile kernels, side-load Linux and do all sorts to work around this. Not to mention that the problem will go away when when the older distro will be updated to the newer one anyway.

This is why I said it's the user space that makes up the real difference in usability between the different Linuxes. And user space would largely not care whether your running bare metal or virtualised; with the exception of Xorg drivers such as human interface devices, but again, those can easily be installed / replaced if needed.

Furthermore, OS maintenance is purely an administration task, it makes no difference what-so-ever what the underlying hardware is. That is unless you've some how found a version of Linux who's "passwd", "groupadd" and other such sys admin commands, only work on physical processors on odd hours of the day and virtualised CPUs on even hours of the day tongue.gif But in all seriousness, hardware should be largely transparent to the user in terms of maintenance as it will be the same tools calling the same APIs / ABIs - it's only at that stage where the kernel will translate the instructions for the respective hardware - be that virtual or physical.

Agreed; I haven't been mucking around with different distros as much recently so I don't have any examples straight away.

Different versions and patches on the kernel, applications, etc can make a significant difference that might not show in a VM, it really does come down to drivers, one example from about 8 months ago was networking drivers...Debian Unstable didn't work on my laptop, however Ubuntu did (Because they patch in drivers, obviously) but both worked fine in a VM; remember that most VMs will use a fake (separate from the real hardware) NIC, Chipset, GPU (Usually) among other things, the actual programs are the same but patches are/can be different, as are drivers; it's a very good reason to test bare-metal, keep in mind VMs only have the lack of rebooting as a plus, it ends up being a little easier overall but if you want to know for 100% sure about how a distro works on your PC its bare metal or nothing.

If it doesn't make sense, it's 6am and I'm still yet to sleep.redface.gif
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post #59 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Agreed; I haven't been mucking around with different distros as much recently so I don't have any examples straight away.
Different versions and patches on the kernel, applications, etc can make a significant difference that might not show in a VM, it really does come down to drivers, one example from about 8 months ago was networking drivers...Debian Unstable didn't work on my laptop, however Ubuntu did (Because they patch in drivers, obviously) but both worked fine in a VM; remember that most VMs will use a fake (separate from the real hardware) NIC, Chipset, GPU (Usually) among other things, the actual programs are the same but patches are/can be different, as are drivers; it's a very good reason to test bare-metal, keep in mind VMs only have the lack of rebooting as a plus, it ends up being a little easier overall but if you want to know for 100% sure about how a distro works on your PC its bare metal or nothing.
If it doesn't make sense, it's 6am and I'm still yet to sleep.redface.gif

I agree with some of what you say (you're not entirely accurate about virtualisation as you can use the hosts hardware - either directly or via paravirtualisation) but not with your conclusion.

The real crux of the matter is that all you're testing on bare metal is the kernel and the kernel is one of the biggest common denominators across all the distros anyway; plus the kernel is pretty easy to update / recompile / whatever. So I still think it's a pretty worthless test in comparison to the user space tools.

If you don't like the package manager in Debian, then it's not as easy to switch to a 100% RPM set up* or even to use Arch's tarballs. If you don't like YaST in SuSE, then you can't install Ubuntu's Software Centre. So it's the user space tools that define a distro, thus testing the kernel is pretty irrelevant in my opinion.

*yeah I know Debian supports RPM as per the it's requirements in the LSB spec, but that's a whole other matter to managing install packages and keeping them up to date)
Edited by Plan9 - 9/4/12 at 1:27pm
post #60 of 75
But how is it irrelevant? If it creates extra work due to having to find and set up more drivers, then that'd be a negative.
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