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post #131 of 240
The issue of PvE gear in PvP is a separate balancing issue. What I was talking about was being able to independently tweak NUMBERS without having unwanted effects in PvE or PvP.
As far as abusing PvE gear in PvP goes, I think Blizzard has generally agreed that it shouldn't be allowed, or should bear a disadvantage big enough to discourage people from doing it.

Case in point: PvP Power, the new "stat" coming in MoP that will replace (or co-exist) with Resilience. PvP Power will come on all PvP gear and will provide a significant damage boost - enough to offset the damage boost gained by PvE gear, so basically PvE gear in PvP will be pointless. But PvP Power will work only against other players, not mobs. Isn't that hilarious? An entirely new mechanic shoved into the game to further separate PvE and PvP, and yet they refuse to simply apply that rule to all damage/healing abilities instead.
post #132 of 240
You really think it's that simple? Changing entire class mechanics/skills/talents at this point for World of Warcraft would be a crazy burden just for the dev's alone. It's not as simple as "in PvE this does one thing & in PvP it does something else". Do you not already see all the balancing and issues that needs to be done without adding such a thing into the mix? Something like that needs to be implemented from scratch or you need to basically re-design the entire game. The revamped skill tree and glyph system for MoP will hopefully promote build diversity and whatnot that players can enjoy.

I understand why many folks want talents that react different in PvP and PvE. The Devs adding resilience and PvP Power for MoP shows an understanding of what is needed to keep PvP separated in certain regards. However, don't go all ape because they're not designing it the way you want it. I don't think you really understand how demanding and taxing such an overhaul would be for the game right now.
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post #133 of 240
I played WoW since BC. Had some great and not so great moments. Cata was one of the not so great moments.

I won't be buying MoP at release. I kinda want to wait this out and see how it unravels instead of being disappointed like I was with Firelands and Dragon Soul.
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post #134 of 240
MoP will just turn out just like Cata (IMO) : Unbalanced PvP, dumbing down customization, boring dungeons and adding gimmicks too Raids that will get old and annoying after the first week. The way they have done PvP i think its too late for them to finally balance it correctly, i dont see the game lasting that much longer its had a good innings but i think we'll get maybe 1 more Expansion (well i say we - i wont be getting MoP unless im given it)

Theres just not alot they can do too keep the game feeling fresh, the dungeons and raids are getting worse and worse. leveling experience also gets worse and worse and after like the first month they will nerf the XP needed to hit max level and then theres just not alot they can really add/change too keep the game feeling fresh
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post #135 of 240
I don't see how the new system adds diversity. There are less choices and therefore more builds that will be the same
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post #136 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maniak View Post

You really think it's that simple? Changing entire class mechanics/skills/talents at this point for World of Warcraft would be a crazy burden just for the dev's alone. It's not as simple as "in PvE this does one thing & in PvP it does something else". Do you not already see all the balancing and issues that needs to be done without adding such a thing into the mix? Something like that needs to be implemented from scratch or you need to basically re-design the entire game. The revamped skill tree and glyph system for MoP will hopefully promote build diversity and whatnot that players can enjoy.
I understand why many folks want talents that react different in PvP and PvE. The Devs adding resilience and PvP Power for MoP shows an understanding of what is needed to keep PvP separated in certain regards. However, don't go all ape because they're not designing it the way you want it. I don't think you really understand how demanding and taxing such an overhaul would be for the game right now.
The game has been through several revamps already. MoP will be yet another massive revamp. There are plenty of abilities that can already differentiate between player and NPC. It IS relatively simple and it WILL fix countless balancing issues.

I'll give you a golden example: Frost mages. Their damage in PvE has always been sub-par, often being disregarded completely in the raiding scene. Why not increase their Frostbolt and Ice Lance damage? Oh wait, because they're DESTROYING people in PvP, a damage buff would have terrible consequences. What to do about it? Make Deep Freeze behave differently in PvP and PvE! This ability can crit bosses/vehicles for 110K+ (not even kidding) and does zero damage to players, stunning them instead. That is what you call an utterly BAND-AID solution, a solution pulled literally right out of Blizzard's buttocks.

That is just one of the countless examples of classes/specs that have either NEVER been fixed or suffered a constant roller-coaster ride of being overpowered/underpowered depending on PvP and PvE. I've seen it happen with healers, DPS and even tanking specs. Remember how horribly wrong Vengeance went when applied in PvP? Blood DK tanks slaughtering people with 40k+ crits. Yet another stupid "PvE gimmick" that backfired when mixed with PvP. And don't even get me started on the Dragon Soul trinkets, massively nerfed ONLY because they were broken in PvP, greatly angering the raiding comunity.

Once abilities are completely seperated, Blizzard will then be free to say "alright, Frostbolt and Ice Lance damage going up by 4% in PvE. Frostbolt and Ice lance damage coming down by 5% in PvP." Every season a few tweaks would be all that's necessary to keep classes and specs balanced. Sure, values may grow further and further apart over time - but we can thank Blizzard's absurd design choices for that. Nobody forced them to tack 100 million health onto bosses, yet they choose to, and the only way we can kill such overpowered bosses is to do absurd amounts of damage that would make no sense in a PvP scenario. WoW's PvP and PvE have been fundamentally separated since the very beginning, Blizzard simply didn't realize it, and gap has grown vastly bigger and painfully obvious over time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by General121 View Post

I don't see how the new system adds diversity. There are less choices and therefore more builds that will be the same
Wrong. I'll show you why - you can have 10 Rogues with 10 completely different talent builds in MoP, yet they will all output exactly the same DPS. Is this possible right now in Cataclysm? HECK no.
In MoP, none of the new talents have any direct impact on DPS/Healing. They are all gimmick-style utilities and nothing else so everyone is free to pick whatever they like, whatever suits them. There are zero "no-brainer" talents. There is no "right or wrong" build. That is true diversity.
Currently almost every single DPS, Healing or Tanking build is identical / cookie-cutter because there are so many no-brainer talents that have a direct impact on performance. You either choose them, or you perform terribly.
E.g. what would you choose, a 50% movement speed cooldown? Or the ability to jump 30 yards with a cooldown? Or the ability to break roots with a much longer cooldown? You simply can't go wrong, everyone will have a different opinion for the situation. Most MoP talents are like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magariz View Post

They have addressed it. It is called "the burden of knowledge". If they make all the abilities have different effects for pvp and pve then your going to make things far too complicated.
This is what Blizzard said and the community found it insulting, me included. Is it really that confusing to look at a green tooltip (clearly marked "PvE") and a red tooltip (clearly marked "PvP")?. My brother is 9 years old and even he would understand the concept in seconds. It's not confusing at all.
Edited by Tippy - 7/29/12 at 5:00pm
post #137 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post

The game has been through several revamps already. MoP will be yet another massive revamp. There are plenty of abilities that can already differentiate between player and NPC. It IS relatively simple and it WILL fix countless balancing issues.
I'll give you a golden example: Frost mages. Their damage in PvE has always been sub-par, often being disregarded completely in the raiding scene. Why not increase their Frostbolt and Ice Lance damage? Oh wait, because they're DESTROYING people in PvP, a damage buff would have terrible consequences. What to do about it? Make Deep Freeze behave differently in PvP and PvE! This ability can crit bosses/vehicles for 110K+ (not even kidding) and does zero damage to players, stunning them instead. That is what you call an utterly BAND-AID solution, a solution pulled literally right out of Blizzard's buttocks.
That is just one of the countless examples of classes/specs that have either NEVER been fixed or suffered a constant roller-coaster ride of being overpowered/underpowered depending on PvP and PvE. I've seen it happen with healers, DPS and even tanking specs. Remember how horribly wrong Vengeance went when applied in PvP? Blood DK tanks slaughtering people with 40k+ crits. Yet another stupid "PvE gimmick" that backfired when mixed with PvP. And don't even get me started on the Dragon Soul trinkets, massively nerfed ONLY because they were broken in PvP, greatly angering the raiding comunity.
Once abilities are completely seperated, Blizzard will then be free to say "alright, Frostbolt and Ice Lance damage going up by 4% in PvE. Frostbolt and Ice lance damage coming down by 5% in PvP." Every season a few tweaks would be all that's necessary to keep classes and specs balanced. Sure, values may grow further and further apart over time - but we can thank Blizzard's absurd design choices for that. Nobody forced them to tack 100 million health onto bosses, yet they choose to, and the only way we can kill such overpowered bosses is to do absurd amounts of damage that would make no sense in a PvP scenario. WoW's PvP and PvE have been fundamentally separated since the very beginning, Blizzard simply didn't realize it, and gap has grown vastly bigger and painfully obvious over time.
Wrong. I'll show you why - you can have 10 Rogues with 10 completely different talent builds in MoP, yet they will all output exactly the same DPS. Is this possible right now in Cataclysm? HECK no.
In MoP, none of the new talents have any direct impact on DPS/Healing. They are all gimmick-style utilities and nothing else so everyone is free to pick whatever they like, whatever suits them. There are zero "no-brainer" talents. There is no "right or wrong" build. That is true diversity.
Currently almost every single DPS, Healing or Tanking build is identical / cookie-cutter because there are so many no-brainer talents that have a direct impact on performance. You either choose them, or you perform terribly.
E.g. what would you choose, a 50% movement speed cooldown? Or the ability to jump 30 yards with a cooldown? Or the ability to break roots with a much longer cooldown? You simply can't go wrong, everyone will have a different opinion for the situation. Most MoP talents are like that.

But blizzard does do this. I don't see the problem with the fact that frost mages are not for pve yet do okay in pvp? I mean, how many prot warriors do you see even in org battlegrounds? The answer is none. Flagcarriers are always druids or blood dks, even palladins. Does this point to a problem at blizzard? I think not.

To tackle your problem about deep freeze, blizzard implemented this change to give frost mages dps in pve. I don't see what the problem is. Raid bosses are immune to stun so why would a frost mage ever go 31 points into the build to get a talent that raid bosses are immune to? Another example from mages is polymorph. Against mobs its up to 50seconds. Against players it max of 6 or 8seconds with diminishing returns. Is this a bandaid? And finally, to address your "frost mages destroy in pvp" the answer is wrong. They do fine but they are not OP. I could list at least 10 builds which eat them for breakfast. If you don't know to save your trinket for deep freeze well, thats your issue.
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post #138 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post

I'll give you a golden example: Frost mages. Their damage in PvE has always been sub-par, often being disregarded completely in the raiding scene. Why not increase their Frostbolt and Ice Lance damage? Oh wait, because they're DESTROYING people in PvP, a damage buff would have terrible consequences. What to do about it? Make Deep Freeze behave differently in PvP and PvE! This ability can crit bosses/vehicles for 110K+ (not even kidding) and does zero damage to players, stunning them instead. That is what you call an utterly BAND-AID solution, a solution pulled literally right out of Blizzard's buttocks.


....
You're kidding me right? You're asking for a spell to do to two different things depending on scenario (PvE vs PvP). Deep Freeze does EXACTLY that as you just mentioned. You're mad because it's doesn't do "insane" damage to other players? Or are you made because Frost dps in a PvE scenario isn't as high up compared to other trees? You realize that in PvP, Deep Freeze is used as a crowd control spell as well as setting up burst when it's active on an enemy unit? It's not used as a direct dps spell in PvP. However, it is in PvE. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Not all talent trees for all the classes can be amazing dps PvE spec's. Frost mages have almost always been like that (barring Vanilla).
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post #139 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaSpacePope View Post

To tackle your problem about deep freeze, blizzard implemented this change to give frost mages dps in pve. I don't see what the problem is.
You don't see a problem with Blizzard going against their own rule of not separating ability effects like that? And FYI it still wasn't enough to make Frost stop sucking. It just sucked less. They had to nerf Deep Freeze damage back down halfway through this expansion because it was hitting vehicles too hard (that's right, DF got balanced around Strand of the goddamn Ancients), how do you think the PvE frostmages liked that?
Quote:
Raid bosses are immune to stun so why would a frost mage ever go 31 points into the build to get a talent that raid bosses are immune to? Another example from mages is polymorph. Against mobs its up to 50seconds. Against players it max of 6 or 8seconds with diminishing returns. Is this a bandaid?
It was an example of the separation of abilities in PvE and PvP. Yes it's a band-aid, a very old band-aid. Want proof? Ask a new player what Polymorph does and they'll respond "says right there, controls your target for 50 seconds." And then they find out that against enemy players it only lasts 8 seconds > 4 seconds > 2 seconds > Immune and think "wait what the hell just happened?". The tooltip mentioned NOTHING about the drastically reduced duration and NOTHING about diminishing returns. It's in fact completely incorrect. If you want the definition of "confusing", that's it right there. There is an absolute need for two tooltips. This should apply to every ability to make balancing easy for Blizzard because it ultimate boils down to numbers, that was my point.
Quote:
And finally, to address your "frost mages destroy in pvp" the answer is wrong. They do fine but they are not OP. I could list at least 10 builds which eat them for breakfast. If you don't know to save your trinket for deep freeze well, thats your issue.
I've been playing pretty much nothing but my mage since 2007 so I always try to come off with a "frost mages r OP lawlz" attitude to get on people's side, since everyone seems to hate mates these days (or re-rolled one). I know they're not as "godly" as people make them out to be, especially not in the higher brackets where DK's and Aff Locks become a major pain smile.gif
Edited by Tippy - 7/29/12 at 5:39pm
post #140 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maniak View Post

You're kidding me right? You're asking for a spell to do to two different things depending on scenario (PvE vs PvP). Deep Freeze does EXACTLY that as you just mentioned.
Deep Freeze wouldn't need to do this if Ice Lance and Frostbolt damage was ramped up in PvE. Also, it wasn't enough. Also, they nerfed Deep Freeze damage because of Vehicles in PvP (or so a blue post claimed). Frostmage damage in raids was mediocre and they still nerfed DF damage...due to PvP. Do you see where this is going? Absolutely nowhere. Blizzard went full-circle and achieved nothing.
Like how they tried to make Frostfire Bolt work, a spell that relied on being specc'd into two trees at the same time (Fire and Frost), and then they ditched the very concept of hybrid builds due to locking all other trees until you reached the bottom of your primary tree. And then they ended up making Frostfire Bolt a single proc for 1 tree to keep it relevant (Fireball/Frostbolt would've been just as effective). It's like they don't think these things through.
Quote:
You're mad because it's doesn't do "insane" damage to other players? Or are you made because Frost dps in a PvE scenario isn't as high up compared to other trees? You realize that in PvP, Deep Freeze is used as a crowd control spell as well as setting up burst when it's active on an enemy unit? It's not used as a direct dps spell in PvP. However, it is in PvE. You seem to be contradicting yourself.
I think I know what Deep Freeze is used for, thanks. Frostmages are already a strong spec in PvP, I don't deny it. I'm saying that their viability in PvE is hurting because of Blizzard's design with all abilities sharing damage/healing values in both PvP and PvE. It just doesn't work. A player has 150k HP, a boss has 50 million HP. It just doesn't work out.
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Not all talent trees for all the classes can be amazing dps PvE spec's. Frost mages have almost always been like that (barring Vanilla).
Blizzard themselves stated that this simply wasn't good enough. "Ur good in pvp so stop crying about pve" is a concept that was supposed to be ditched years ago, Blizzard's own goal is to get all 3 DPS specs of every class within 5% of each other. Currently it's Fire > Arcane (5%-10% behind) > Frost (20-25% behind). There's no point in being a pure class with 3 DPS trees if you're only allowed 1 tree per role. Where's the flavor? The entire point of having 3 DPS trees is to accomodate different playstyles, so why does a Frost Mage get laughed at in raids because they like the Frost playstyle? It's not good enough.
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