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[TR] NASA's $2.5bn Curiosity rover: Apple PowerBook specs on wheels - Page 15

post #141 of 183
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Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

This is actually stricter than enterprise standards... this is aerospace. I am not sure which is strictest... medical, aerospace, or military.
This is different from a "new gene sequencer" because you cannot send someone to fix it ever. It is always about risk/benefit.... Mars missions historically have a bad track record. Based on this, NASA made the decision to overbuild.... I believe every primary system is fully redundant?
Yes, I would trust NASA engineered and optimized software designed for specific platform to do anything that it was designed for. It's not like they are writing software and hoping it works. They have written the software and tested thousands of times.
I already explained why they choose not to use current or upcoming technology. It is unproven. A manufacturing flaw like the Intel Cougar Point SATA controller or errata like the Phenom I were not discovered until a few months after production. Developing a custom CPU would just drive up costs and you still would have the risk with unproven technology.

Well I can understand questioning tech a few months old, but to only use tech that has been proven for ten years?

Though it looks like they are basing the reliability on the RAD6000 which was the predecessor for the RAD750. The reference to Apple here is that it sounds like you could pull out the RAD750 and stick in a PowerPC 750 and it would most likely work...but would lack the environmental tolerances of radiation and temperatures.

I was really hoping this mission would take the tech a step forward, but alas it didn't. The last hope I had was the ST-8, but it got scrapped...basically its prime mission was to test newer hardware in space. So we are stuck with the RAD750 a while longer. I guess my hopes here were that they would actually be doing some number crunching on Mars, but they are sending everything back to earth to analyze.

I am still amazed the landing system worked though. It sounds like it was really doing some high level operations.
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post #142 of 183
I wonder how it will do in the major dust storms.

Anyone know what sort of wind speed those dust storms reach?

What we really need on mars is a Mining Crew.. ID love to know whats under Mars surface.

When they found all the Silica a foot or so under the surface that was pretty awesome find. makes you wonder what else can be found?

Like the finding of the perclorate in the dirt which make its doubtful that life will be there anytime soon.
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post #143 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

Well I can understand questioning tech a few months old, but to only use tech that has been proven for ten years?
Though it looks like they are basing the reliability on the RAD6000 which was the predecessor for the RAD750. The reference to Apple here is that it sounds like you could pull out the RAD750 and stick in a PowerPC 750 and it would most likely work...but would lack the environmental tolerances of radiation and temperatures.
I was really hoping this mission would take the tech a step forward, but alas it didn't. The last hope I had was the ST-8, but it got scrapped...basically its prime mission was to test newer hardware in space. So we are stuck with the RAD750 a while longer. I guess my hopes here were that they would actually be doing some number crunching on Mars, but they are sending everything back to earth to analyze.
I am still amazed the landing system worked though. It sounds like it was really doing some high level operations.

Why would you want that? Scientists are going to want the raw data anyways, so why not work with it without a 24 minute ping? As "cool" as it might be to build a supercomputer and launch it into space, where's the scientific gain in doing so? And for basic number crunching (large spreadsheets and whatnot), you can do it just fine with a G3 - unless you're folding proteins, for strict math it's beyond powerful enough to get actual science done.
 
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post #144 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post


Windows security is more transparent than OSX.... not UNIX.

Surprised you haven't realized OSX is UNIX. What exactly would be obfuscating data on OSX that wouldn't be on FreeBSD for example?
post #145 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

Well I can understand questioning tech a few months old, but to only use tech that has been proven for ten years?

That's impossible to do.

As Duckie alluded to earlier, it takes years (and money) to qualify these things.

My actual profession is project engineering, and currently I'm working in the aerospace sector planning the budget/resource/timescale requirements of qualifying aircraft ground equipment for use on specific aircraft.

It takes up to two years (and ranges from hundreds to thousands of hours) to qualify items such as a simple pump and complex machines for use on an aircraft. When you have a charging rate of between $30-$70 that equates to a lot of money for the clearance of an item. A $100 inflation pump can take 200 hours to clear for example, which would equate to $14,000 (plus the $100 to procure the equipment) just to use it on an aircraft.

Legislation doesn't allow you to just walk up and think...this is obviously compatible so I'm going to buy it. Everything has to have engineering life cycle reviews, specifications, compatibility tests, and all of the other good paper work that creates a strong audit trail that will stand up in court, and of course ensure that it is compatible with the product.

Using technology that is a few months old is impossible. These projects take years to plan and design. You have to take a baseline somewhere and say 'this is what I'm going to use', by the time the product is built and actually ready for use you're talking 5 years down the line for this sort of specialist equipment.

The hardware is chosen at the design phase, not the build phase. To change the hardware would take even more years, and yet more cost. It's simply not feasible. This is why you often find 'out dated technology' in advanced engineering projects.

In regards to having the analysis on-board, it's just too much. It adds weight, complexity, and cost to the project that is totally unnecessary. With more complex equipment you introduce a shorter life expectancy due to reliability issues. With more complex equipment you introduce a shorter life expectancy in regards to longevity due to power consumption. Don't forget that these things cannot be repaired nor maintained, nor can they be re-fuelled.

It also takes hours (sometimes days) for the data to reach earth, imagine sending a larger packet of data? You only take what you need, and for space exploration all you need is the raw data, scientists already have the equipment readily available on earth to extract that data into something usable.
Edited by IcedEarth - 8/14/12 at 8:57am
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post #146 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nope oO View Post

Surprised you haven't realized OSX is UNIX. What exactly would be obfuscating data on OSX that wouldn't be on FreeBSD for example?
True... OSX is a closed UNIX. Apple has been lambasted by security companies/experts for number of years. They did not update Java for months which of course is a major vector of attack. In other case of issues, employees were explicitly told not to talk about problems or delete forum posts about them. Basically, other companies have better security procedures and policies that are more transparent to the end-user and businesses.

I do want to note that Apple has updated their security policies and architecture as of June. i.e. One big issue was that OSX updated security weekly instead of daily.
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post #147 of 183
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Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

True... OSX is a closed UNIX. Apple has been lambasted by security companies/experts for number of years. They did not update Java for months which of course is a major vector of attack. In other case of issues, employees were explicitly told not to talk about problems or delete forum posts about them. Basically, other companies have better security procedures and policies that are more transparent to the end-user and businesses.
I do want to note that Apple has updated their security policies and architecture as of June. i.e. One big issue was that OSX updated security weekly instead of daily.

Is one extremely hard to exploit[required Java to be installed AND enabled in the browser(off by default) AND did not have Little Snitch] one time rare event making OSX less transparent than Windows? Are you kidding me? The tens of thousands of exploits for Windows every week is more transparent?

The fact that Windows is still vulnerable to exploits from over a decade ago and Microsoft's history of ignoring critical vulnerabilities for years makes them more transparent? I guess knowing with certainty that you're easily exploitable from the get-go is somewhat more transparent than not knowing when the next one will come.

As I originally stated, what exactly can you do on FreeBSD that you can't on OSX that would make OSX less transparent? It sure isn't anywhere near as convoluted as Windows is...
Edited by Nope oO - 8/14/12 at 10:48am
post #148 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nope oO View Post

Is one extremely hard to exploit[required Java to be installed AND enabled in the browser(off by default) AND did not have Little Snitch] one time rare event making OSX less transparent than Windows? Are you kidding me? The tens of thousands of exploits for Windows every week is more transparent?
As I originally stated, what exactly can you do on FreeBSD that you can't on OSX that would make OSX less transparent? It sure isn't anywhere near as convoluted as Windows is...


That one Java exploit was just an example. There have been other exploits as well.

It's not a matter of technical design but more of a matter of policy. As in the Apple handling of communication about bugs and exploits. MS is willing to discuss security issues while Apple has a pattern of obfuscating issues.... then issuing a fix.


Does Apple send out emails like MS about security issue?
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/dd252948.aspx

To report a security issue to MS: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/ff852094.aspx
Edited by DuckieHo - 8/14/12 at 10:37am
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post #149 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

That one Java exploit was just an example. There have been other exploits as well.
It's not a matter of technical design but more of a matter of policy. As in the Apple handling of communication about bugs and exploits. MS is willing to discuss security issues while Apple has a pattern of obfuscating issues.... then issuing a fix.
Does Apple send out emails like MS about security issue?
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/dd252948.aspx
To report a security issue to MS: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/ff852094.aspx


Microsoft does not discuss or disclose details of active exploits that haven't been patched yet, for obvious reasons. Third parties have no problem doing this though. There are a couple exceptions to this rule such as acknowledging the metafile exploit that had been around since 1991 and DLL-loading which has been around since 1998.

Apple and Microsoft both describe the exploits in detail after they have been patched in release notes. You can report security issues to both companies. I fail to see how Microsoft is any more transparent after their long history of neglecting critical vulnerabilities for years after they've been made public. I've read some of your other posts and you seem quite intelligent. How can you honestly believe Windows is more transparent than OSX? Are you talking about the OS itself or Marketing departments?
post #150 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nope oO View Post

Microsoft does not discuss or disclose details of active exploits that haven't been patched yet, for obvious reasons. Third parties have no problem doing this though. There are a couple exceptions to this rule such as acknowledging the metafile exploit that had been around since 1991 and DLL-loading which has been around since 1998.
Apple and Microsoft both describe the exploits in detail after they have been patched in release notes. You can report security issues to both companies. I fail to see how Microsoft is any more transparent after their long history of neglecting critical vulnerabilities for years after they've been made public. I've read some of your other posts and you seem quite intelligent. How can you honestly believe Windows is more transparent than OSX? Are you talking about the OS itself or Marketing departments?
I'm talking about Apple's lack of communicate to security researchers and public in general. I find MS's documentation is much better than Apple's. Do you have a link to Mac Defender or Flashback analysis by Apple?

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/what-microsoft-can-teach-apple-about-security-response/4987
http://www.itworld.com/microsoft-patches-faster-than-apple-080327?page=0,1
http://www.technolog.msnbc.msn.com/technology/technolog/how-far-behind-apples-security-744429
http://blog.securityinnovation.com/blog/2012/06/mac-windows-safer.html


However, Apple has updated their security policies as of June 2012 and are more focused on improving their process lately.
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