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[YT]Borderlands 2 PhysX enhanced demonstration - Page 13  

post #121 of 327
I think this PhysX stuff if pretty cool but IMO, it would've been better if they did this stuff on Havok, so everyone can enjoy it.
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post #122 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

How is adding something for NV users hurting AMD? The base game is still the same, the game isn't supposed to have a havok based system, sure it might be possible but I doubt GB would like to pay the development costs themselves. NV is paying for the PhysX support so no, the game could not have similar quality havok based physics without significant extra investment.
Would removing PhysX make the game somehow better? All it would do is make the game look worse on NV cards. AMD owners do not lose anything if the game has PhysX and they do not gain anything if PhysX is removed, the normal experience is still there.
It's a win-win since the studio will also be doing other stuff like better options and promoting for the PC version on top of PhysX support. The only way you could consider it a bad thing is if you're just opposed to PhysX out of principle, which I totally understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubers View Post

There is no warrant in those claims at all. If by "time adn time again" you mean "once" then sure. Also, most Physx games would run on my single GTX560Ti without the need for a dedicated card, AND, AMD users can also use Physx if they buy an NV card.
All it boils down to is outright jealousy. Havok couldn't do half the things shown in the video, at acceptable framerates, on a dual core CPU. Physx and HAvok are too entirely different techologies and ahve their own place and time.
Like many have said, you chose to get AMD, for whatever reason, and you knew you'd be shutting yourself off from Physx so there really is no grounds to complain about it.
Juist do waht many others do and hack it wink.gif My Galaxy S3 can run ALL the Tegra 3 effects in mobile games but gets shut off from them. I could've got a Tegra 3 device, I just didn't want to. So, I have zero grounds to complain about it. Instead I just run custom openGL drivers and hack the effcts into my games wink.gif
The comment on nV actively seeking to do harm to AMD was in a broader sense. I'm pointing to their overall willingness to do so, like we've seen over the years. Some companies seek only to promote their products, while others seek to degrade the products of their competitors. I'm sure you'll agree that nV has done it's share of underhanded things in the past -- I'd really prefer to stray from going source hunting on this, though.

After the original Borderlands, I'm sure the demand was seen for a broad PC featureset. I see this going one of two ways:
Borderland 2 developers saw the need and completely ignored it at which point nV stepped in an offered to take care of it to promote their lineup.
Or, the need was seen and the developers actually chose PhysX over Havok, knowing AMD users would be outraged.

In the first scenario, nV obviously isn't innocently offering it's PhysX-ready customers (niche market) some free benefits; they're buying a new advertising tool to use against AMD, and you've seen it in that video.
In the second scenario, I suspect fundamental bribery because this is a terrible, terrible move from the Borderlands team; this thread is a fine testament to that fact. However, if they were truly too stupid to see this coming, I still see their choice of PhysX as insulting to the PC market as a whole. Havok is far better middleware for nVidia users aswell as AMD users anyway.
My point? Both companies are actively alienating AMD users. nV is going rather far to do so, and the BL2 team is either too stupid, or too enticed by nV's mysterious "incentives" to care.

At the end of the day, we're all getting screwed over, even nV users.

Also Rubers, if it were simple jealousy that leads me to feel as stated above, I'd just plop in an old nV card of mine with old drivers; I'm just generally dissatisfied with the actions of both companies, here.
Edited by Mookster - 8/17/12 at 5:24am
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post #123 of 327
BL1 has Physx, if I'm not wrong?

It's not bribary and in this case, it's not a detriment to AMD users. Tehre was the Batman fiasco and NV were caught red handed with their pants down, and they received a verbal arse tanning for as well. I sincerely doubt something like that will happen again.

And of course it's an action "against" AMD in an effort to wrest more marketshare BACK form AMD, who are currently at around 23%, whereas NV are around 16%.

In the end, the game will play and look fine without Physx, just like all Physx titles. If it bothers you that much, sell up and buy an NV card. Otherwise, it's not a big deal!
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post #124 of 327
Ugh, now I want an Nvidia Card.
post #125 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

The comment on nV actively seeking to do harm to AMD was in a broader sense. I'm pointing to their overall willingness to do so, like we've seen over the years. Some companies seek only to promote their products, while others seek to degrade the products of their competitors. I'm sure you'll agree that nV has done it's share of underhanded things in the past -- I'd really prefer to stray from going source hunting on this, though.

Only allowing AA for NV cards in batman: AA is the only occasion that springs into my mind. At least NV has a much bigger and longer history of sponsoring developers to add stuff like the high res and dx11 pack in crysis 2. They're also much more prevalent in organizing all kinds of LAN parties and otherwise promoting PC gaming, which while offering merketing benefits for NV also helps PC gaming as a whole.

Also if you're not willing to quote sources or list more events of NV harming AMD then how is your statement credible?
Quote:
After the original Borderlands, I'm sure the demand was seen for a broad PC featureset. I see this going one of two ways:
Borderland 2 developers saw the need and completely ignored it at which point nV stepped in an offered to take care of it to promote their lineup.
Or, the need was seen and the developers actually chose PhysX over Havok, knowing AMD users would be outraged.

The 2nd suggestion is pretty much a conspiracy theory. Proof would be needed to even consider the situation seriously.
Quote:
In the first scenario, nV obviously isn't innocently offering it's PhysX-ready customers (niche market) some free benefits; they're buying a new advertising tool to use against AMD, and you've seen it in that video.

This scenario is a win-win to customers though, it doesn't really matter to the customer that NV gets some advertising.
Quote:
In the second scenario, I suspect fundamental bribery because this is a terrible, terrible move from the Borderlands team; this thread is a fine testament to that fact. However, if they were truly too stupid to see this coming, I still see their choice of PhysX as insulting to the PC market as a whole.

Again, proof needed before this can even be considered. There's nothing even pointing towards GB looking to use havoc or implement a more detailed physics modeling system for all platforms.

Even if they were considering it, it would have been a hugely more expensive options most likely.
Quote:
Havok is far better middleware for nVidia users aswell as AMD users anyway.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't understand the technical aspects when it comes to differences between havok and PhysX beyond the most basic stuff.

What I would like to know though is that how is havok just simply a 'better' option? Doesn't this completely depend on the situation? I've also never seen a havok based game with similar effects compared to heavy GPU PhysX games like Alice madness returns, Mafia 2 or BL2.
Quote:
My point? Both companies are actively alienating AMD users. nV is going rather far to do so, and the BL2 team is either too stupid, or too enticed by nV's mysterious "incentives" to care.

Again, AMD buyers knew that their cards weren't capable of GPU PhysX and GB is not taking anything away from AMD owners, why would AMD owners be alienated?
Quote:
At the end of the day, we're all getting screwed over, even nV users.

This has more to do with disagreeing with the principle of PhysX in general. When it comes to BL2, it would look like NV users aren't getting screwed over at all. Neither are AMD users though.
 
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post #126 of 327
Why do Nvidia do these kinds of things?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirkonis View Post

Ugh, now I want an Nvidia Card.

That's why tongue.gif

It's win-win for their customers and gets them more customers. So long as they don't hidner performance for AMD cards again (which only happened once to my recollection) then it's fine. I highly doubt they'll do that again. There was much backlash even from their fans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Only allowing AA for NV cards in batman: AA is the only occasion that springs into my mind. At least NV has a much bigger and longer history of sponsoring developers to add stuff like the high res and dx11 pack in crysis 2. They're also much more prevalent in organizing all kinds of LAN parties and otherwise promoting PC gaming, which while offering merketing benefits for NV also helps PC gaming as a whole.
Also if you're not willing to quote sources or list more events of NV harming AMD then how is your statement credible?
The 2nd suggestion is pretty much a conspiracy theory. Proof would be needed to even consider the situation seriously.
This scenario is a win-win to customers though, it doesn't really matter to the customer that NV gets some advertising.
Again, proof needed before this can even be considered. There's nothing even pointing towards GB looking to use havoc or implement a more detailed physics modeling system for all platforms.
Even if they were considering it, it would have been a hugely more expensive options most likely.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't understand the technical aspects when it comes to differences between havok and PhysX beyond the most basic stuff.
What I would like to know though is that how is havok just simply a 'better' option? Doesn't this completely depend on the situation? I've also never seen a havok based game with similar effects compared to heavy GPU PhysX games like Alice madness returns, Mafia 2 or BL2.
Again, AMD buyers knew that their cards weren't capable of GPU PhysX and GB is not taking anything away from AMD owners, why would AMD owners be alienated?
This has more to do with disagreeing with the principle of PhysX in general. When it comes to BL2, it would look like NV users aren't getting screwed over at all. Neither are AMD users though.

Don't forget sponsoring the COD4 map packs for us wink.gif
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post #127 of 327
by way of Using Physx, are they stting that this lvl of game play is achievable with a Single GTX GPU handling game and Physx right there

or are they say that this is achievable with a GTX + dedicated Physx Card?


For those of you who were saying things like using there Fermi's GTX 4** + cards as dedicated Physx cards may not be worth it.

I remember looking over Physx Benchmarks and gameplay tests for the first Batman Arkam Asylum game, where the added physx Element was actually worth doing

But they tested a bunch of cards for this and the results were surprising where the Dedicated Physx Card was concerned.


Basically it was found that using a GTX 275/285 + a GTX 260 for Physx performed worse than using soemthing as simple as a 9800gt for physx

Seems at least back then a Simple card is whats necessary for successful Physx processing (which is why i guess that first Physx Card was about as powerful as a nVidia MX440 lol)

Anyone ever tested this sort of thing recently?

Ive been meaning to find out if there are any useful things to do with a dedicated Physx Card these days
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post #128 of 327
I'm sure someone can make a list of multiplatform games that would have either never made it to the PC or never had the level of PC exclusive features that they had (vendor agnostic or otherwise) without Nvidia's support. The last thing we need is PC gamers turning against one of the biggest sponsors of PC gaming just because one feature out of the dozens of new features happens to be a bonus for a particular vendor (which cared enough to spend resources on it). Without Nvidia's support the visual effects you see in this video would not exist at all and the game would be closer to feature parity with the console versions.
post #129 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFL Replica View Post

I'm sure someone can make a list of multiplatform games that would have either never made it to the PC or never had the level of PC exclusive features that they had (vendor agnostic or otherwise) without Nvidia's support. The last thing we need is PC gamers turning against one of the biggest sponsors of PC gaming just because one feature out of the dozens of new features happens to be a bonus for a particular vendor (which cared enough to spend resources on it). Without Nvidia's support the visual effects you see in this video would not exist at all and the game would be closer to feature parity with the console versions.

Its not like the Physx items are all that special when you look at it.

Ground particles liek the dirt and water and slime stuffs, they dont move very realistically at all

and when something blows up in the middle, all the pieces curn into round particles and Bound outward almost in unison. Its still a long long way away from being close to realistic.

So I dont know why people are crying about it currently. Physx is still currently a waste, as far as the way it is being implemented.

Im happy enough with Source Engine Physics processing, which is fairly simple, but if I kick a chair it moves, I kick it hard neough a part of it flies off and the rest collapses.
or liek in Vindictus which is built off the Source engine, that game is mad fun and the physics work very well there. (source does this CPU based I believe)

But seriously, take a GOOD look at what the Physx does in this Borderlands2, and decide if it really matters at all
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post #130 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuuut View Post

So what makes NVidia cards so special with its physx that AMD cards can't do this? Seems to me current gen cards have enough power to do it with or without physx....

It can worj perfectly fine on every modern GPU.

nVIDIA actually offered AMD PhysX support for licensing fee, but AMD refused.
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