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[YT]Borderlands 2 PhysX enhanced demonstration - Page 23  

post #221 of 327
The fact that it runs on the GPU is irrelevant. It's no different than it running on a different CPU core. The same sort of coherency problems, and solutions, are present.
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post #222 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

The fact that it runs on the GPU is irrelevant. It's no different than it running on a different CPU core. The same sort of coherency problems, and solutions, are present.

The GPU runs out of sync by as much as two frames on some occasions with the CPU. There is too much latency between CPU and GPU to have the GPU make changes to the physics world that the CPU is using. But yes, you could run the effects entirely on a CPU, which is the original point I tried to make about 100 posts ago. So yes, you're correct.

edit: n/m, you're not talking about GPU physics affecting CPU physics.
Edited by lordikon - 8/17/12 at 9:12pm
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post #223 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

The GPU runs out of sync by as much as two frames on some occasions with the CPU.

It can run further out of synch than this, but this is just frames rendered a head, and mayor may not have any bearing on other tasks the GPU is doing. The GPU can run other things simultaneously with the renderer and latency across the PCI-E bus is no where near the tens of ms it would take to be noticeable for these other tasks.

Even CPU only physics engines often are intentionally desynchronized from the rendering engine. Crysis is a prime example of this. You can manually sync the renderer and physics, but this destroys performance and is normally only done to make certain video recordings appear smoother when played at a fixed fps later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

There is too much latency between CPU and GPU to have the GPU make changes to the physics world that the CPU is using.

Evidently this is not the case.

Games like Warmonger and CellFactor (though I haven't personally experienced the latter) are blatant examples to the contrary.
Edited by Blameless - 8/17/12 at 9:35pm
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post #224 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post

Sigh...I hate dragging my soap box out of storage. mad.gif
The bottom line is if all Nvidia did were allow game developers to support PhysX and nothing more, there wouldn't be a problem. Clearly Nvidia does more to help the developers or they wouldn't partake because it would be more overhead for negligible gain. Nvidia has even hindered AMD in TWIMTBP games before, and they won't let PhysX work when the main card is an AMD, so clearly Nvidia is not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts like many of you sheeple imply. Now they are going even further in the mobile space and the fanboys don't seem to care. Nvidia is the Apple of the graphics world, and they get away with it just like Apple does because of all the sheeple that keep buying Nvidia cards because "it's no big deal" when Nvidia doesn't play fair.
Just because something is not technically illegal doesn't mean it is something you should do. We get enough of that with rich people trying to control the world and buy elections - I don't want to deal with it in my personal life, so it irks me to no end that those of you who still buy Nvidia and Apple products force me to.

Yup...

Pretty much what I have been saying, but of course people don't want to hear it. Nvidia is just a great company doing nothing or what they do is because they feel like being nice....
    
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post #225 of 327
I can't believe all the complaining in this thread about a company using it's own technology. It makes perfect sense to restrict PhysX to Nvidia-only setups.

Instead of complaining about another company's card doing more than yours, why don't you just buy that other card next time? Someone has something better, then switch companies. Do you have to buy an AMD card to take advantage of their price/performance ratio? Well then you have to buy a Nvidia card to take advantage of their offerings as well.
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post #226 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post

Sigh...I hate dragging my soap box out of storage. mad.gif
The bottom line is if all Nvidia did were allow game developers to support PhysX and nothing more, there wouldn't be a problem. Clearly Nvidia does more to help the developers or they wouldn't partake because it would be more overhead for negligible gain. Nvidia has even hindered AMD in TWIMTBP games before, and they won't let PhysX work when the main card is an AMD, so clearly Nvidia is not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts like many of you sheeple imply. Now they are going even further in the mobile space and the fanboys don't seem to care. Nvidia is the Apple of the graphics world, and they get away with it just like Apple does because of all the sheeple that keep buying Nvidia cards because "it's no big deal" when Nvidia doesn't play fair.
Just because something is not technically illegal doesn't mean it is something you should do. We get enough of that with rich people trying to control the world and buy elections - I don't want to deal with it in my personal life, so it irks me to no end that those of you who still buy Nvidia and Apple products force me to.
what is this? Alright, I get it that Nvidia messed up stuff to make AMD cards not work as well in a game. Foul. As far as not letting PhysX run on an AMD card? DUH. they bought the technology by buying Ageia, and it's been said they offered AMD the ability to pay for a physx license, which they declined. Even if they didn't offer it, it is their tech now, and it is optional for game makers to even include it in their games, and there are alternatives.
Now as far as 'sheeple' you're going a little too far. Not everyone who buys a brand whos business practices you happen to dislike is 'sheeple'. When I bought my gpu, I chose after a couple months of research, a 560ti based on wanting 3d vision, and Physx is something I knew I would get as a bonus. I then chose it based on my budget. It has nothing to do with 'oh my god, nvidia', but based upon my research, I find that in general, especially for the extra benefits I desire, Nvidia has better options in gpus. If I were running 6 monitors, maybe AMD, but I am not. It is no different than my choice to buy an Intel processor. I looked into AMD processors with their 8core offerings, but after research, determined that Intel was the better choice for me.
You are definitely throwing the 'sheeple' around too freely, as a nearly even market split is definitely not 'conformist'. Was it 'playing fair' when AMD brought out bulldozer and made up their own definition of what a core is, and provided benchmarks that only showed off the very few things that a FX could even compete with a core series on? How about all the people who pre-ordered these cpus, or bought them later based on AMDs lies and falsehoods? Most of the larger companies do 'shady' things to promote their own self interests, and happens on both sides of the board 90% of the time. MS does terrible things to sell more copies, Apple hires lil chineese kids to do labor for cheap so they can make more profit off of their less numbers sold. Nvidia messes with some Nvidia sponsored games to run bad on AMD, AMD releases BS benchmarks to fool the consumer. You buying from a company that isn't now in the spotlight for bad morals doesn't mean you didn't buy from a company that does just as bad. Would you buy an inferior GPU by AMD for the same amount of money out of distaste for something Nvidia did to AMD? thats just ridiculous. 'nvidia hurt amd users this one time, and amd never did anything wrong ever, i will NEVER buy nvidia now!!!' sounds a bit fanboyish to me.
also, no body in there right mind stated nvidia done coding for games out of the goodness of their hearts. they did it for advertisement in the game intros. they did it to get better games on the pc, which require dedicated gpus, and they sell about half of that market. they get a few games with physx as a bonus for their cards, and maybe some people buy nvidia cards based solely on that, probably not many. they also have 3d vision support for a lot of games, and from a few, and maybe some people buy cards based on that. I don't see what is absurd about that. yeah, i agree they took it too far when they coded the AA to hinder amd cards in the batman game.. but the rest of the things i listed seem pretty legit business practices to me.
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post #227 of 327
Did some more FLuidmark benches...

i7 970 @ 4.2GHz, Radeon 6950 (unlocked), CPU PhysX (8 threads - ~64% CPU utilization): http://i.imgur.com/xUu7R.jpg

i7 2700k @ 4.6GHz, GTX 480, GPU PhysX: http://i.imgur.com/R1Z1w.jpg

i7 2700k @ 4.6GHz, GTX 480, CPU Physx (8 threads - 100% CPU utilization): http://i.imgur.com/v84Qq.jpg

i7 920 @ 3.5GHz, GTX 275, GPU PhysX: http://i.imgur.com/usWYz.jpg

If you have a fast enough CPU, and if the game's PhysX implimentation is well threaded, you are going to need a Fermi PhysX card for GPU PhysX to really beat CPU PhysX.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dph314 View Post

I can't believe all the complaining in this thread about a company using it's own technology. It makes perfect sense to restrict PhysX to Nvidia-only setups.

PhysX isn't restricted to NVIDIA only setups, and never has been.

However, hardware PhysX is restricted if you have an AMD/ATI GPU installed, even if you have an NVIDIA GPU in the same system.

That's pretty backasswards don't you think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dph314 View Post

Someone has something better, then switch companies.

Who has something better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by -SE7EN- View Post

As far as not letting PhysX run on an AMD card? DUH.

PhysX likely couldn't run on ATI hardware without substantial reworking anyway, and it would be foolish for NVIDIA to spend time optimizing for AMD hardware. However, this has never been the compliant.

If I take my GTX 480 and stick it in my primary system, I cannot use GPU PhysX without hacked drivers. Why? Because I have an AMD GPU as well.

This is asinine.
Edited by Blameless - 8/17/12 at 10:30pm
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post #228 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by dph314 View Post

I can't believe all the complaining in this thread about a company using it's own technology. It makes perfect sense to restrict PhysX to Nvidia-only setups.
Instead of complaining about another company's card doing more than yours, why don't you just buy that other card next time? Someone has something better, then switch companies. Do you have to buy an AMD card to take advantage of their price/performance ratio? Well then you have to buy a Nvidia card to take advantage of their offerings as well.

doh.gif

I get the feeling you haven't read what has been said, at least not what I have put up. I am mainly referring to the quotes from Nvidia on the subject...

This isn't a situation of one company having something the other doesn't, this is a situation of one company providing financial gain to developers to lock out the competition and screw over the gamer! Once upon a time an AMD user could buy a Physx Processing Unit, or put in an Nvidia card, to have these features. Nvidia realized this and has now gone out of their way to prevent this situation from happening, without using some form of custom hacked drivers or other backwards installation process. If Nvidia actually was doing all of this out of some goodness of their heart, they wouldn't be trying to force gamers into a corner! They would either sell Physx Processing Units, or allow Nvidia cards to run in tandem with AMD cards to take advantage of Physx. Except they don't! Why? They want the gamer to be in the corner, because there are enough people like you that will just give in and buy their card.

I can promise that without the financial incentives from Nvidia and their TWIMTBP program, developers wouldn't be using a closed system like Physx, they would be licensing other middleware like Havok. But hey, as a developer, why pay for something when you get get it for free + millions in coding done? Even if at the expense of ticking off a few customers.....
    
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post #229 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

The GPU runs out of sync by as much as two frames on some occasions with the CPU.

It can run further out of synch than this, but this is just frames rendered a head, and mayor may not have any bearing on other tasks the GPU is doing. The GPU can run other things simultaneously with the renderer and latency across the PCI-E bus is no where near the tens of ms it would take to be noticeable for these other tasks.

Even CPU only physics engines often are intentionally desynchronized from the rendering engine. Crysis is a prime example of this. You can manually sync the renderer and physics, but this destroys performance and is normally only done to make certain video recordings appear smoother when played at a fixed fps later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

There is too much latency between CPU and GPU to have the GPU make changes to the physics world that the CPU is using.

Evidently this is not the case.

Games like Warmonger and CellFactor (though I haven't personally experienced the latter) are blatant examples to the contrary.

I can't speak for CellFactor, but having spoke to the developers on Warmonger (I worked at NetDevil), the destruction was predetermined on the CPU side, the effects for it were done on the GPU side.
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post #230 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by dph314 View Post

I can't believe all the complaining in this thread about a company using it's own technology. It makes perfect sense to restrict PhysX to Nvidia-only setups.
Instead of complaining about another company's card doing more than yours, why don't you just buy that other card next time? Someone has something better, then switch companies. Do you have to buy an AMD card to take advantage of their price/performance ratio? Well then you have to buy a Nvidia card to take advantage of their offerings as well.

Nice try, Nvidia marketing department.
Edited by Wired66 - 8/17/12 at 10:46pm
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