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so what is holding back WINE from replacing the need for windows in games and applications? - Page 5

post #41 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

I appreciate you're using a translator, but that does not make any sense. frown.gif

I believe he meant OpenGL, rather than OpenCL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z Overlord View Post

I am pretty sure Windows being less developed and less consistent and less secure are facts not opinions

Linux has it's issues too. It's just not as black and white as you're making it out to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traches View Post

You're right, I shouldn't have used the word "better"; I was over-simplifying the issue, again mostly because of the way the OP phrased his argument. The reasonable opinion is that both linux and windows have their strengths, meaning that they're each suited to different usage scenarios. I just get riled up when linux fans start saying things like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z Overlord View Post

I mean Windows isn't even comparable to say most Linux Distros or even Apple OSX, Windows really has no strengths or things to like, it just happens to have all the support in the world

I have to agree with this. Linux is fantastic, and I run it on every single one of my machines, but there are certainly drawbacks (although I'd have to say a lot of this is mainly on the development side of things) and the choice of which to put on your machines is certainly not as clear cut as some Linux fans like to perpetuate. It's a much better idea to use what works best for you in your situation.
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post #42 of 60
microsoft is well known for being a monopolist, back stabbing partners (ibm, intel, and others) and in some cases has been accused of things like industrial espionage and the likes.
post #43 of 60
Thread Starter 
I still think Linux distros like Ubuntu and Mint are easier to use than Windows, which often needs hardware makers to make new dumb drivers each OS revision, can naturally breaks itself (Windows rot), needs defragging (what year is this!?) and gives the impression you need to pay for everything (oh you can't open this document, buy MS Office!, Windows anytime upgrade makes it easier for us to make money off of you, buy the next windows)

Linux is stable as a rock and has a tougher file system that won't lose data as easily
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post #44 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

OpenGL is used massively outside of Windows / Xbox land. Playstation, Wii, and iOS all run OpenGL. OS X does too. OpenGL is a pretty standard set of graphics libraries and used by most game developers. It's just DirectX makes a lot of sense when porting games to Windows.
As above, the graphic libraries are not the issue. Plus if you're developing all games in OpenGL for cross platform compatibility then you might as will go the whole hog and release native binaries (though I appreciate that's a massive over-simplification of the process).
The real issue for WINE is the fact that Windows APIs are a moving target. By the time one subset of Windows is reverse engineered, a whole new set of APIs are released as a new version of Windows hits the shelves. It's why compatibility layers need to be managed by a 3rd party and built with portability at the core - and then what you end up with is something like Java, where execution speed is compromised.
This is why we need a standard set of libraries and native ELFs (aka the Linux equivalent of Windows .EXE binaries). Thankfully it sounds like Valve are doing this by porting Source to Linux


Except that only Microsoft API that game developers use is DirectX, aside from initializing the window container, and that's so archaic that it takes DOS arguments.

And don't spew that tired old Java BS. It may have been slower a decade ago, but right now its neck and neck with C++ in terms of speed. I mean, its not even a compatibility layer, its a virtual machine with its own instruction set. rolleyes.gif
    
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post #45 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post

Except that only Microsoft API that game developers use is DirectX, aside from initializing the window container, and that's so archaic that it takes DOS arguments.
And don't spew that tired old Java BS. It may have been slower a decade ago, but right now its neck and neck with C++ in terms of speed. I mean, its not even a compatibility layer, its a virtual machine with its own instruction set. rolleyes.gif

There's OpenGL is a lot more games that you think there is then. It may not be the main component, but it's still aside DX in many cases.
post #46 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traches View Post

.... and that the only reason windows is so popular is because microsoft is evil. I'm sick of seeing that attitude.
There is an element of truth to that. Microsoft have been one of the biggest bullies of the IT playground over the last couple of decades. I'm not saying Microsoft are alone in this, just that you'd have to be naive to think that any commercial product becomes dominant from it's own merits alone. And for a long time, Windows clearly wasn't the best product on the market (O/S2, BeOS, MacOS, etc). These days there's really not much between most of the big OSs, so it's just a matter of personal preference. I, for one, find myself infinitely more productive in Linux, plenty fine the opposite to be true. It's all just horses for courses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Lawnchair View Post

I believe he meant OpenGL, rather than OpenCL.
OpenCL does exist too; so I'm sure he meant OpenCL. It was the rest of his post I struggled with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

microsoft is well known for being a monopolist, back stabbing partners (ibm, intel, and others) and in some cases has been accused of things like industrial espionage and the likes.
You picked some of the worst possible examples there as IBM and Intel are as brutal as MS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post

Except that only Microsoft API that game developers use is DirectX, aside from initializing the window container, and that's so archaic that it takes DOS arguments.
You're assuming game developers use the entire Dx framework for all their needs. Back when I was a Windows dev (and I'll grant you this was a number of years ago as all my games were built in Dx 6 and 7) I preferred Winsock to Dx's network stack - though I can't for the life of me remember why. Also, if game developers want any form of multi-threading then they would have to look outside of DirectX anyway (or has Dx now added libraries for doing this in later releases)? So you can't simply assume that all Windows game developers religiously stick to Dx when your goal is to bring Windows game compatibility to Linux.

Furthermore, having full DirectX compatibility on Linux would be pointless if there was next to no .NET nor Win32 framework in place else you'd never be able to install the bloody games in the first place. rolleyes.gif

Anyhow, all this is moot as you'd completely missed my point. It doesn't matter if game devs use Win32 APIs or DirectX, they're all still moving targets. Each new release of Windows includes a new release of DirectX and ever 3 years WINE is pushed further behind Windows. Dx or not, WINE cannot ever catch up with Windows because by the time it stabilises an API, Microsoft supersedes it. And that was the crux of my argument and why Linux shouldn't chase after the impossible goal of running Windows games; instead it should be focusing on supporting native games with the best possible cross-platform toolkits (which is what I hope to see with Valve's Source engine).
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post

And don't spew that tired old Java BS. It may have been slower a decade ago, but right now its neck and neck with C++ in terms of speed. I mean, its not even a compatibility layer, its a virtual machine with its own instruction set. rolleyes.gif
I never said Java ran on a compatibility layer. I said by the time you've built a cross platform compatibility layer focused on performance, you'll end up with something akin to Java.

I'm well versed in how Java operates given I've been developing in it (albeit not as my primary language) since the early 1.x days. However to say that Java performs equally well as C++ is just wrong and completely misses the point of how applications execute. Granted JVMs have improved massively over the years, but there still needs to be a core interpretation layer as byte code cannot natively execute on the CPU (hence it being called "byte code" and hence there being a virtual machine wink.gif ). Regardless of how well optimised your JVM is, it will always have a greater performance overhead when compared to running machine code direct from a Windows PE. That's completely unavoidable but is the cross you have to bare when building cross platform frameworks and executables.

However, if you were to compare Java to other byte code-based languages such as those in the .NET camp (eg C#), then you would have a point.
Edited by Plan9 - 8/20/12 at 1:45am
post #47 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Lawnchair View Post

I believe he meant OpenGL, rather than OpenCL.
Linux has it's issues too. It's just not as black and white as you're making it out to be.
I have to agree with this. Linux is fantastic, and I run it on every single one of my machines, but there are certainly drawbacks (although I'd have to say a lot of this is mainly on the development side of things) and the choice of which to put on your machines is certainly not as clear cut as some Linux fans like to perpetuate. It's a much better idea to use what works best for you in your situation.

THIS.
Stop arguing. This statement perfectly summarizes how the operating system war should be stopped. Its not a war, its not an appendage measuring contest, or a popularity vote. It has nothing to do with the limitations or advantages of any given operating system. For the large majority of the population whatever OS they grew up on will be their OS of choice. For a smaller number of people, they will find something lackluster with their current choice, or more appealing on the other side of the fence and jump ship. And for an even smaller number of people, neither market dominant operating system will be sufficient to satisfy their needs and they will delve into the world of *nix and BSDs. There are a negligible number of people who will run something off the norm just to say they do or because they want to prove something. This is how it will always be (Unless someone does something radical, negative or positive - Thank you, Microsoft; Valve!). Nothing makes any one OS definitively better than any of the others, most of it is opinionated, and the rest is trading blows.

Granted, in the case of Linux it does typically (Not always, and its significant software library hindrances negate things in most people's eyes) win in terms of performance and pure numbers. Latency, Network Throughput, FPS, R/W performance, security and the like are usually Linux's crown. Gaming is currently Window's trophy. And OSX herald's champion of media editing and production - as well as coffee shop use; ZING!. (Although arguably, Windows and Linux could equally perform in those areas easily.)
    
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post #48 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaero252 View Post

THIS.
Stop arguing. This statement perfectly summarizes how the operating system war should be stopped. Its not a war, its not an appendage measuring contest, or a popularity vote. It has nothing to do with the limitations or advantages of any given operating system. For the large majority of the population whatever OS they grew up on will be their OS of choice. For a smaller number of people, they will find something lackluster with their current choice, or more appealing on the other side of the fence and jump ship. And for an even smaller number of people, neither market dominant operating system will be sufficient to satisfy their needs and they will delve into the world of *nix and BSDs. There are a negligible number of people who will run something off the norm just to say they do or because they want to prove something. This is how it will always be (Unless someone does something radical, negative or positive - Thank you, Microsoft; Valve!). Nothing makes any one OS definitively better than any of the others, most of it is opinionated, and the rest is trading blows.
Granted, in the case of Linux it does typically (Not always, and its significant software library hindrances negate things in most people's eyes) win in terms of performance and pure numbers. Latency, Network Throughput, FPS, R/W performance, security and the like are usually Linux's crown. Gaming is currently Window's trophy. And OSX herald's champion of media editing and production - as well as coffee shop use; ZING!. (Although arguably, Windows and Linux could equally perform in those areas easily.)
You're kind of contradicting yourself there by arguing that people shouldn't be discussing these things as there's no right or wrong answer, then go on to list some 'facts' about which facets different OSs are the best at.


I think as long as people can discuss without trolling, then discussions are a healthy thing. that said, I am getting sick of seeing a new 'gaming on Linux' thread each week.
post #49 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by killeraxemannic View Post

Why don't people understand that they just need to leave linux to what it is meant for and stop trying to use it as a home OS?

Because Linux isn't meant for anything.
    
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post #50 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

You're kind of contradicting yourself there by arguing that people shouldn't be discussing these things as there's no right or wrong answer, then go on to list some 'facts' about which facets different OSs are the best at.
I think as long as people can discuss without trolling, then discussions are a healthy thing. that said, I am getting sick of seeing a new 'gaming on Linux' thread each week.

Actually its kind of my point, its not worth arguing what OS is definitively better or not. Each OS has its merits and downfalls and its entirely user based choice. Whatever works best for you is what you should use, and you should use it for the reasons you want to or the needs it fulfills. Its impossible to overlook that one OS does something better than another, but to outright say a single OS can be king of them all is wrong. I'm okay with people using Apple, and Microsoft products and having them say "Mac is great because I have Garage Band and a more well developed Creative Suite experience!" and a Windows user saying "I love Windows because its less of a hassle to get games working, and a large library of games is readily available!" the issue arises when some, for lack of a better term, douche comes in and is like "Oh, you use a mac? Fag." or "Macs are so much better than PCS because X" or even "Linux is the best operating system because of its level of customization and the amount of power it provides the user." Its sickening, and dumb - I have faith that most human beings are capable of recognizing (even if it has to be pointed out to them) that things that are bound to an opinion aren't worth arguing over.
    
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