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so what is holding back WINE from replacing the need for windows in games and applications? - Page 6

post #51 of 60
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Originally Posted by Xaero252 View Post

Actually its kind of my point, its not worth arguing what OS is definitively better or not. Each OS has its merits and downfalls and its entirely user based choice.
Ahh right. Sorry redface.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaero252 View Post

Whatever works best for you is what you should use, and you should use it for the reasons you want to or the needs it fulfills. Its impossible to overlook that one OS does something better than another, but to outright say a single OS can be king of them all is wrong. I'm okay with people using Apple, and Microsoft products and having them say "Mac is great because I have Garage Band and a more well developed Creative Suite experience!" and a Windows user saying "I love Windows because its less of a hassle to get games working, and a large library of games is readily available!" the issue arises when some, for lack of a better term, douche comes in and is like "Oh, you use a mac? Fag." or "Macs are so much better than PCS because X" or even "Linux is the best operating system because of its level of customization and the amount of power it provides the user." Its sickening, and dumb - I have faith that most human beings are capable of recognizing (even if it has to be pointed out to them) that things that are bound to an opinion aren't worth arguing over.
Nicely put smile.gif
post #52 of 60
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Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

It's OCN, and here facts are opinions, and opinions are facts. A for my short stay here so far the Linux section was free of this type of stupidity, but it seems to be leaking into our humble section.

Sorry to say but in the relatively short time I have been a member here the stupidity has grown immensely and infected just about every area. "Faboys" spread their propoganda everywhere and it has become a place where everyone is wrong.

My experience with Windows has been all over the gamut.

Win 3.1.1 - Stable, worked, efficient. No major issues other than one I caused by somehow getting a space into a file name, that was funny. Try using a DOS command to delete a file with a space.
Win 95 - Worked for the most part, some minor bugs here and there but nothing drastic
Win 2000 - Same as above
Windows Millenium - *** WAS THIS CRAP?!
Win XP - Ok back on track, rare BSOD with games, feared Windows updates lol, overall experience average but not as stable as 2000
Win Vista - Ran a lot smoother than XP in my opinion, still some BSOD's although most were caused after I got into overclocking, ran into a couple driver issues, overall experience was "ok"
Win 7 - Aw hell yeah, not a single issue for the past year and a half I had it installed. Had 2 crashes from unstable overclocks and a HDD fail causing boot mgr issues, easy fix. experience was great!

**********THIS IS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND OPINION*************
Flame me for this being so and I will report your response quicker than you can imagine! Opinion DOES NOT equate to fact!

Linux vs Windows is an arguement that can't really be had. Both have their place just as Mac OS does. It is a apples vs orrange vs banana comparison. While I would love to see a copy of Linux be as "easy" as Windows and be an equal gaming platform, it just isn't right now. The lines are blurring more and more each day. There used to be a day where you bought a Apple for media editing, Linux for servers/networking, and Windows for you home pc/gaming. This was not that long ago although many here might be too young to remember. I have tried to get into Linux a few times but it just hasn't been a pleasant experience but I do not put it down. I see its potential and will try it again in the future. The thing with Windows is I feel it does many things well or ok, while it does nothing outstanding. It tries to provide a "balanced" experience for the user allowing them to do many things relatively easily in a clean package that is a middle ground between the locked down enviroment of Mac OS and the open free enviroment of Linux. That totaly open enviroment scares many people as it leaves so many ways that they can inadvertantly mess up the system causing them massive stress. Many people aren't into computers that much and just want it to turn on, run their games and work. Windows does this very well. Mac OS takes this even further by controlling what can be done with the system as they own everything about it, allowing them to provide an OS that is optimized for specific hardware offering a decent selection of games and a very clean ui. They all appeal to different crowds and the difference between crowds has begun to overlap. I can definately see a much stronger competition for users in the "near" future as this segregation in what each OS offers begins to blur even more.
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post #53 of 60
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Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

You're assuming game developers use the entire Dx framework for all their needs. Back when I was a Windows dev (and I'll grant you this was a number of years ago as all my games were built in Dx 6 and 7) I preferred Winsock to Dx's network stack - though I can't for the life of me remember why. Also, if game developers want any form of multi-threading then they would have to look outside of DirectX anyway (or has Dx now added libraries for doing this in later releases)? So you can't simply assume that all Windows game developers religiously stick to Dx when your goal is to bring Windows game compatibility to Linux.
Furthermore, having full DirectX compatibility on Linux would be pointless if there was next to no .NET nor Win32 framework in place else you'd never be able to install the bloody games in the first place. rolleyes.gif
Anyhow, all this is moot as you'd completely missed my point. It doesn't matter if game devs use Win32 APIs or DirectX, they're all still moving targets. Each new release of Windows includes a new release of DirectX and ever 3 years WINE is pushed further behind Windows. Dx or not, WINE cannot ever catch up with Windows because by the time it stabilises an API, Microsoft supersedes it. And that was the crux of my argument and why Linux shouldn't chase after the impossible goal of running Windows games; instead it should be focusing on supporting native games with the best possible cross-platform toolkits (which is what I hope to see with Valve's Source engine).

And what I'm saying is that's pretty much already happened. Game developers already use the bare-minimum of Microsoft APIs when they develop. Most game engines make use of 3rd-party, often cross-platform toolkits, or use their own baked in version. The only real festering sore that's left is DirectX, which is where most of my issues with WINE have occurred. WINE for the most part runs great, aside from the major graphical issues and slowdowns that come from being unable to translate every last Direct3D feature.
Quote:
I never said Java ran on a compatibility layer. I said by the time you've built a cross platform compatibility layer focused on performance, you'll end up with something akin to Java.
I'm well versed in how Java operates given I've been developing in it (albeit not as my primary language) since the early 1.x days. However to say that Java performs equally well as C++ is just wrong and completely misses the point of how applications execute. Granted JVMs have improved massively over the years, but there still needs to be a core interpretation layer as byte code cannot natively execute on the CPU (hence it being called "byte code" and hence there being a virtual machine wink.gif ). Regardless of how well optimised your JVM is, it will always have a greater performance overhead when compared to running machine code direct from a Windows PE. That's completely unavoidable but is the cross you have to bare when building cross platform frameworks and executables.
However, if you were to compare Java to other byte code-based languages such as those in the .NET camp (eg C#), then you would have a point.

Have you bothered to develop in it anytime in the last 10-15 years? Because you seem to have completely missed the whole JIT-compilation thing. Java executes as native code on your machine. And furthermore, its compiled for your machine, rather than a generic target you'd get from a binary, and its safe to say that the JVM knows more about your machine than a compiler sitting on some guy's workstation a thousand miles away. Java really is neck and neck with C++ in performance. There are things Java does faster and things C++ does faster, but they pretty much tie most of the time.
    
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post #54 of 60
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Originally Posted by nathris View Post

And what I'm saying is that's pretty much already happened. Game developers already use the bare-minimum of Microsoft APIs when they develop. Most game engines make use of 3rd-party, often cross-platform toolkits, or use their own baked in version. The only real festering sore that's left is DirectX, which is where most of my issues with WINE have occurred. WINE for the most part runs great, aside from the major graphical issues and slowdowns that come from being unable to translate every last Direct3D feature.
Yes, I know how games are developed and developers using each others in-house toolkits isn't anything new. However you're still missing my point that DirectX is still a major dependency (in fact you said this yourself). Given DirectX is a moving target, it's impossible for Linux to reverse engineer any kind of decent compatibility. And without that compatibility there, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference what the other dependencies are or how well Linux performs because the game simply wont work.

I don't really know how I can make this point plainer: chasing after Windows compatibility is not a viable long term goal for Linux. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post

Have you bothered to develop in it anytime in the last 10-15 years? Because you seem to have completely missed the whole JIT-compilation thing.
I have used Java recently thank you very much. As recently as last year in fact. To be honest, I had forgotten about the JIT though, but even there, the JIT still adds overhead in the initial execution (albeit not runtime). Also you're assuming that the Java JIT compiler is as well optimised as some of the best C++ compilers (different compilers can actually give you difference degrees of performance from the same source code).
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post

Java really is neck and neck with C++ in performance. There are things Java does faster and things C++ does faster, but they pretty much tie most of the time.
You know what, if you can find a benchmark then I'd be interested to see it and will happily concede my argument if proved wrong. I've looked around, but all I could find was this which claimed his tests proved C++ was 3 times faster. However he failed to provide any of his source nor any figures - so it's as good as worthless.

[edit]
found this as well: http://blog.famzah.net/2010/07/01/cpp-vs-python-vs-perl-vs-php-performance-benchmark/
This does provide figures and seems to back up my point that C++ compilers can provide better optimisations.
Edited by Plan9 - 8/20/12 at 10:28am
post #55 of 60
@Plan9

Found this from 2004. Found this from 2010. Found this from 2011. smile.gif
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post #56 of 60
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Originally Posted by parityboy View Post

@Plan9
Found this from 2004. Found this from 2010. Found this from 2011. smile.gif

I stand corrected then. Thanks for the posts, some great reading there smile.gif
post #57 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Yes, I know how games are developed and developers using each others in-house toolkits isn't anything new. However you're still missing my point that DirectX is still a major dependency (in fact you said this yourself). Given DirectX is a moving target, it's impossible for Linux to reverse engineer any kind of decent compatibility. And without that compatibility there, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference what the other dependencies are or how well Linux performs because the game simply wont work.

Ok now I'm confused. That was my original point. That its specifically DirectX that's holding back WINE gaming, and a switch to OpenGL would solve that particular problem.



And as far as the performance thing goes, you can find individual benchmarks that show Java is faster than C++, or that C++ is faster than Java, but overall they're close enough that it doesn't really matter.
    
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post #58 of 60
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Originally Posted by nathris View Post

Ok now I'm confused. That was my original point. That its specifically DirectX that's holding back WINE gaming, and a switch to OpenGL would solve that particular problem.
It wouldn't though. As you're well aware, Dx is more than just a set of graphics libraries. Plus more games are developed in OpenGL than in DirectX already - just not on the PC platform. So clearly the issue isn't that developers are unwilling to use OpenGL.

But anyhow, I've posted all this a dozen times in a dozen different, yet identical, threads in this very forum. So, with the greatest of respect to you guys, I really can't be bothered to repost it all again smile.gif
post #59 of 60
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Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

It wouldn't though. As you're well aware, Dx is more than just a set of graphics libraries. Plus more games are developed in OpenGL than in DirectX already - just not on the PC platform. So clearly the issue isn't that developers are unwilling to use OpenGL.
But anyhow, I've posted all this a dozen times in a dozen different, yet identical, threads in this very forum. So, with the greatest of respect to you guys, I really can't be bothered to repost it all again smile.gif


Except that DirectX nowadays is little more than a means to get to Direct3D. The other components are largely worthless and rarely used in games.


And developing for OpenGL ES on mobile platforms doesn't mean that developers prefer it to Direct3D. It just means that they have to use it. There's a huge bias towards Direct3D for PC development, simply because its engrained in developers heads that you need to use it for your game to be successful, even though OpenGL is simpler, easier, and if AMD/Nvidia would devote a bit of time to optimizing their drivers, faster.
    
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post #60 of 60
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Originally Posted by nathris View Post

Except that DirectX nowadays is little more than a means to get to Direct3D. The other components are largely worthless and rarely used in games.
That's really not true though. DirectSound is used massively (and not just in gaming either). Plus your still missing the bloody point that Dx is a moving target and thus not a long term strategy for Linux.

I swear to God, I think you're being deliberately obtuse now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post

And developing for OpenGL ES on mobile platforms doesn't mean that developers prefer it to Direct3D. It just means that they have to use it.
Oh for crying out loud, what I said was quite the opposite to developers "preferring" OpenGL. I said more games are already built in OpenGL and thus the issue isn't that developers are unwilling to use it. ie Devs are aware and already skilled in OpenGL yet Dx still offers a number of benefits that drive developers away from OpenGL.

Also OpenGL is used on a whole plethora of other devices from games consoles to rendering farms - it's not just used in mobile apps. So whipping out the ES subset as a prime example is just plain trolling rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post

There's a huge bias towards Direct3D for PC development, simply because its engrained in developers heads that you need to use it for your game to be successful,
That's complete and utter BS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post

even though OpenGL is simpler, easier, and if AMD/Nvidia would devote a bit of time to optimizing their drivers, faster.
Listen mate, I've developed in both DirectX and OpenGL. I'm telling you now that Dx is easier to develop in than OpenGL wink.gif In that there's a whole range of reasons why developers (inc myself) favour D3D over OpenGL.

However the development ease is largely a moot argument, because the code should be modularised in such a way that the actual game mechanics doesn't directly call any graphics APIs (a principle you are likely quite familiar with given Java's OO approach).

Anyhow, all of this generalisation is retarded. I've seen games developed in Delphi, Java and even -shock horror- VB. I've even some developers initiate a DirectDraw frame buffer then software render to canvas using Win32 APIs laugher.gif (this was years ago though). Over the years, I've so many different approaches and technologies employed that you can't really lump all developers attitudes under the same umbrella like we are.
Edited by Plan9 - 8/21/12 at 2:10am
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