Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Video Game News › [GI] Remedy: Next-Gen consoles are a quantum leap
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[GI] Remedy: Next-Gen consoles are a quantum leap - Page 18  

post #171 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

You guys (above, but not necessarily directly above me), need to realize that buying a gaming computer is not something the average consumer can do easily, and your average computer that is selling in retail stores have things like A8-A10 trinity or HD 2000-3000 GPUs in them, which are barely keeping up with 7-8 year old consoles. Most people's computers could barely play the kinds of games that are on consoles until a few years ago when the console hardware was 5 years old. The machines we have on OCN are not the norm. I became a game developer when I was 25 years old, before that time I literally knew of nobody with a gaming PC other than myself.

What I'm getting at is that it doesn't matter what wattage the GPUs in gaming PCs are, or how many GPUs that they can hold, because neither of those things matter to the majority of gamers, which is who will be targeted with the next-gen consoles. The majority of gamers want to spend much less for a gaming rig, they will be paying $250-500 total for a platform that may last up to 8 years, not $250-500 for a single GPU, much less multiple GPUs.

Incoming car analogy: We on OCN are like hot rodders, who buy their own parts, build their own cars, want the best performance and every aspect of their car to be perfect. The majority of people don't build their own cars, don't want to build their own cars, don't want to spend that kind of money on cars, they just want something easy to use, reliable, and affordable. So which company makes more money, Ferrari, or Ford? Ford, and saying they won't succeed because they don't have a 600 hp V-12 in them makes no sense whatsoever.

I don't think you understood what I meant: since 2005 current desktop GPUs have lifted the TDP bar way beyond what console makers can commercially cram in a nice box to have in your living room. It doesn't really matter if it's a high-end GPU that few people can afford, the limitation is the same if you look at mid-range GPUs, those that sell in numbers. Take a look at the TDP of a Radeon HD 7850, which is a card a lot of people will be able to afford, and will realistically be in the price range of the HD 7770 next year, when consoles are released, and this definitely is the segment that sells the most: it's 104w (not counting with the 20% PowerTune, the card has an official 130w board power). This is probably the limit of what you can use in a console. This wasn't the case at all in 2005. The RSX used in the PS3 was based on the 7800GTX which was a card that was higher in the hierarchy compared to what the HD 7850 is now, and even more when you consider where it will be by next year, as I said.

I agree that GPU wattage in the higher-end cards are much higher than they used to be, so yea you won't be seeing a console with similar hardware to top-of-the-line PCs. I guess my point was just that it wouldn't matter all that much to most consumers.
Foldatron
(17 items)
 
Mat
(10 items)
 
Work iMac
(9 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 950 EVGA x58 3-way SLI EVGA GTX 660ti GTX 275 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
3x2GB Corsair Dominator DDR3-1600 80GB Intel X25-M SSD 2TB WD Black 150GB WD Raptor 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
2x 150GB WD V-raptor in RAID0 Win7 Home 64-bit OEM 55" LED 120hz 1080p Vizio MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 
PowerCase
750W PC P&C Silencer CoolerMaster 690 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i5 2500S AMD 6770M 8GB (2x4GB) at 1333Mhz 1TB, 7200 rpm 
Optical DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
LG 8X Dual-Layer "SuperDrive" OS X Lion 27" iMac screen Mac wireless keyboard 
Mouse
Mac wireless mouse 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7-2600K AMD 6970M 1GB 16GB PC3-10600 DDR3 1TB 7200rpm 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
256GB SSD 8x DL "SuperDrive" OS X 10.7 Lion 27" 2560x1440 iMac display 
Monitor
27" Apple thunderbolt display 
  hide details  
Foldatron
(17 items)
 
Mat
(10 items)
 
Work iMac
(9 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 950 EVGA x58 3-way SLI EVGA GTX 660ti GTX 275 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
3x2GB Corsair Dominator DDR3-1600 80GB Intel X25-M SSD 2TB WD Black 150GB WD Raptor 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
2x 150GB WD V-raptor in RAID0 Win7 Home 64-bit OEM 55" LED 120hz 1080p Vizio MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 
PowerCase
750W PC P&C Silencer CoolerMaster 690 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i5 2500S AMD 6770M 8GB (2x4GB) at 1333Mhz 1TB, 7200 rpm 
Optical DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
LG 8X Dual-Layer "SuperDrive" OS X Lion 27" iMac screen Mac wireless keyboard 
Mouse
Mac wireless mouse 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7-2600K AMD 6970M 1GB 16GB PC3-10600 DDR3 1TB 7200rpm 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
256GB SSD 8x DL "SuperDrive" OS X 10.7 Lion 27" 2560x1440 iMac display 
Monitor
27" Apple thunderbolt display 
  hide details  
post #172 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

I also agree with that, and that is also the reason it will be difficult for consoles to keep pace for long this time. If you look at the last time, it was already rather difficult. The Xbox 360 already had overheating problems and the PS3, though it didn't suffer from the same problem, was one of the biggest consoles ever made, with a little over 200w power consumption for the first version.
Yes, definitely, consoles are indeed able to match, quality wise, what PCs actually take advantage of in the year they are released. Next year we will have the HD 8000 and the GTX 700, which means that HD 7970 and HD 7950 and GTX 680 and GTX 670 will effectively become mid-range cards, which is what the market is aiming now to release next year, and next generation consoles, even with hardware that is probably only half as powerful as these now current high end cards, will probably be able to match it, but after that it will be a struggle.
I forgot about something which also benefited consoles this time around: they were able to match PCs for a very long time because both made the same approach to multi-core usage. Back in 2005 dual core CPUs had just been released, and the consoles, with their multi-core CPUs, only saw them being fully used years later, and the same happened with PCs. The first games for the Xbox 360 used one core, just as with the PC version. So, for a few years, the CPU part of the equation was able to keep consoles on par, as both consoles and PCs progressively saw the developers take more and more advantage of multi-core CPUs. But now that we are here, the question is: how many threads can game developers effectively use ? After having learned how to use 3 or 4 threads, is that scalable to, say, 8, 12 or 16 ? Or is quad-core the best, most efficient approach ? That is also an interesting question. AMD is pushing for more than 4 cores, even though their initial attempt was arguably a flop due to unbalanced performance in lightly threaded vs. highly threaded applications, but the direction in desktop CPUs is that: six core Intel CPUs will probably become affordable starting next year, with the probably entry level 22nm IB-e being a six core CPU, versus this years Core i7-3820, and the year after that will continue the trend, and AMD will release Steamroller, with arguably much needed and improved performance when compared to the first Bulldozer.
With more cores you can invest a lot more in A.I, making the games not only look but also feel a lot more realistic, I remember a guy from Valve saying that starting with quad cores things got very interesting from that point of view, so I wonder what developers will be able to do with more CPU cores, for example.
So the question is: how long will the next console cycle last ?

Uh, console games were multithreaded upon release. That means PGR3 and Kameo, Xbox 360 launch titles, used all six threads in the Xenon. CPU is not a limiting factor as much as the shader power is, just read some dev interviews.

Consoles don't need "250w GPUs" to look great. At 1080p, Battlefield 3 looks the same on a 7850 as it does on a 7970.
Edited by BizzareRide - 9/2/12 at 9:54am
Po' Pimpin'
(11 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
i5 2500k @ stock Biostar TZ68K+ [A3] 4GB  Sandforce 1222 64GB SSD 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
LG 22x DVD-+RW  Stock Windows 7 x64 Acer S211HL 1080p 
PowerCaseMouse
600w Diablotek Linkworld Electronic Inland 
  hide details  
Po' Pimpin'
(11 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
i5 2500k @ stock Biostar TZ68K+ [A3] 4GB  Sandforce 1222 64GB SSD 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
LG 22x DVD-+RW  Stock Windows 7 x64 Acer S211HL 1080p 
PowerCaseMouse
600w Diablotek Linkworld Electronic Inland 
  hide details  
post #173 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by BizzareRide View Post


Uh, console games were multithreaded upon release. That means PGR3 and Kameo, Xbox 360 launch titles, used all six threads in the Xenon. CPU is not a limiting factor as much as the shader power is, just read some dev interviews.

Consoles don't need "250w GPUs" to look great. At 1080p, Battlefield 3 looks the same on a 7850 as it does on a 7970.


Need for Speed: Most Wanted, released in 2005 for the Xbox 360 was not multi-threaded, and so were many other games. My point is not whether it is a limiting factor or not for the games you are currently developing, but the truth is, if you were to have a much a more powerful GPU, you'd want a much more powerful CPU to keep up with the GPU, not necessarily in terms of being able to feed the GPU, but to further evolve A.I. and make a truly advanced game from an A.I. perspective along with great graphics. In my opinion games are still kind of 'dumb', and my question is how much CPU horsepower you need and how many threads you can take advantage of to make something truly advanced. Doug Lombardi from Valve said that things got interesting when we reached quad cores and beyond, so that is the question. If you want to keep developing 'dumb' games, sure, current CPUs won't be a limiting factor.

Fast forward to 3:00:


Yes, Battlefield 3 will look and play the same if the HD 7850 or the HD 7970 was used on a console. But that is not the point. The point is that, although comparable GPUs in consoles can do a lot more than on a PC, my point is that from a TDP point of view, it is no longer possible to cram a high-end GPU, or at least the high-end GPU from the previous year on a console, and that has implications for the future, because PCs will have an advantage sooner than until now. This is not a question of whether on launch games on consoles will look just as good as on the PC, this has to do with how long the next console generation is going to last.
Edited by tpi2007 - 9/2/12 at 7:33pm
 
Metro 2033 review
Metro 2033
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-3820 Asus Sabertooth X79 MSI GTX 1060 6 GB Gaming X 16 GB Corsair DDR3 1866 Mhz Dominator 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Samsung SSD 830 128GB + WD Caviar Black 2TB Sony Optiarc DVD-RW Corsair A70 + Noiseblocker M12-P Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
BenQ RL2455HM Cooler Master Octane Corsair AX750 Professional Modular 80 Plus Gold Cooler Master HAF 912 Plus 
Mouse
Cooler Master Octane 
  hide details  
 
Metro 2033 review
Metro 2033
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-3820 Asus Sabertooth X79 MSI GTX 1060 6 GB Gaming X 16 GB Corsair DDR3 1866 Mhz Dominator 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Samsung SSD 830 128GB + WD Caviar Black 2TB Sony Optiarc DVD-RW Corsair A70 + Noiseblocker M12-P Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
BenQ RL2455HM Cooler Master Octane Corsair AX750 Professional Modular 80 Plus Gold Cooler Master HAF 912 Plus 
Mouse
Cooler Master Octane 
  hide details  
post #174 of 181
Doesn't the word quantum mean minuscule or really small?
post #175 of 181
Exactly. And DirectX11 will fly.
Main system
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 2600K@4.4 ASUS P8Z68-V gigabyte hd 7970 oc (1040 1475) Kingston HyperX Genesis 1600 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Intel 330 Series OEM CollerMaster Hyper212+ Win7 64 
MonitorPower
ASUS 24'' 1080p Corsair 750W 
  hide details  
Main system
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 2600K@4.4 ASUS P8Z68-V gigabyte hd 7970 oc (1040 1475) Kingston HyperX Genesis 1600 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Intel 330 Series OEM CollerMaster Hyper212+ Win7 64 
MonitorPower
ASUS 24'' 1080p Corsair 750W 
  hide details  
post #176 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisguitar View Post

Doesn't the word quantum mean minuscule or really small?
This is going to be the smallest increase in graphical quality between generations yet, so it makes sense somewhat.
Leo Platform
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II X6 1055T Gigabyte 890GPA-UD3H Sapphire HD5870 G. SKILL Ripjaws 4GB 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
Seagate 7200.12 1TB Windows 7 Asus 23" Antec Earthwatts 650W 
Case
CM690 
  hide details  
Leo Platform
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II X6 1055T Gigabyte 890GPA-UD3H Sapphire HD5870 G. SKILL Ripjaws 4GB 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
Seagate 7200.12 1TB Windows 7 Asus 23" Antec Earthwatts 650W 
Case
CM690 
  hide details  
post #177 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

So the question is: how long will the next console cycle last ?

Given that the last two generations of console have almost exclusively suffered from lack of (V)RAM... if they don't skimp out on it this time, and plan ahead, I'd say another 5-6 years. Would be nice if they could plan ahead hardware and firmware wise as far as the GPU is concerned though, so they could incorporate the newest technologies without outright having to replace GPU's (i.e. limited to DX9 during DX11 generation).
MOAR COARS
(14 items)
 
Red Dragon
(9 items)
 
Old Green
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1700 AsRock Taichi X370 EVGA 1080Ti FE 16GB Trident Z 3200 C14 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
Samsung 960 Evo 250GB SK Hynix 500GB SSD EK Supremacy Evo EK XTX 65mm Rad 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10  BenQ XL2420T 120hz Tomoko Blue 84-key EVGA SuperNova G2 1000w 
CaseMouse
Fractal Define S Logitech G300S 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 750 MSI P55-GD65 2x Palit GTX460 1GB 8GB 1333 G.Skill F3 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
2x 500gb 1x 320gb Windows 7 Ultimate 22" Samsung 1080p Corsair 750w 
Case
CoolerMaster 690 
  hide details  
MOAR COARS
(14 items)
 
Red Dragon
(9 items)
 
Old Green
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1700 AsRock Taichi X370 EVGA 1080Ti FE 16GB Trident Z 3200 C14 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
Samsung 960 Evo 250GB SK Hynix 500GB SSD EK Supremacy Evo EK XTX 65mm Rad 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10  BenQ XL2420T 120hz Tomoko Blue 84-key EVGA SuperNova G2 1000w 
CaseMouse
Fractal Define S Logitech G300S 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 750 MSI P55-GD65 2x Palit GTX460 1GB 8GB 1333 G.Skill F3 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
2x 500gb 1x 320gb Windows 7 Ultimate 22" Samsung 1080p Corsair 750w 
Case
CoolerMaster 690 
  hide details  
post #178 of 181
I'm no expert or anything.. I still find the Playstation 3 a mystery. Some of the cores in the Cell is still locked and so on. And look what they can do on the console when the games are properly developed to it. Just look what Hideo Kojima did with Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots.. that was released in 2008, Gamespot's review starting with "Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots is probably the most technically stunning game ever made."

Check out the new tease they released for the next Metal Gear Solid game, obviously running on the PS4, however the demonstration is on a PC.

It's all about the developers, and games that I want, if I need to buy a console to play it, I'll do it. But nothing will prevent me stopping using most of my money on the lovely new computer hardware smile.gif
Under progress...
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 960 @ 3.20GHz Asus P6T Deluxe v2 MSI NGTX 480 M2D15 Kingston H2O KHX2133C10D3W1K2/4GX 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
W.D 750GB DVD Drive RW Corsair H2O Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Samsung ® SyncMaster™ 2233RZ Logitech 510 Corsair 750W HX Cosmos S, melted front panel. Weee.. 
MouseMouse PadOther
Warcraft MMO (Scam mouse) another female to WoW. Custom nVidia 3D Vision Kit 
  hide details  
Under progress...
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 960 @ 3.20GHz Asus P6T Deluxe v2 MSI NGTX 480 M2D15 Kingston H2O KHX2133C10D3W1K2/4GX 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
W.D 750GB DVD Drive RW Corsair H2O Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Samsung ® SyncMaster™ 2233RZ Logitech 510 Corsair 750W HX Cosmos S, melted front panel. Weee.. 
MouseMouse PadOther
Warcraft MMO (Scam mouse) another female to WoW. Custom nVidia 3D Vision Kit 
  hide details  
post #179 of 181
Iam just curious beacuse I recently switched to pc from xbox 360,what do u guys think the 360s get in frame rates as we speak? fps?
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
amd fx 6100 asus m5a97 msi radeon 6970 Msi radeon 6970  
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
corsair vengence BLUE  baracuda seagate 7200 rpm asus sata 24x drw thermaltake contac 30 cpu cooler 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
windows 7 home premium 64 bit LG 26 inch led 1900x1080 resolution logitech mk 260 coolermaster 750 watt gx bronze 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
coolermaster 430 elite logitech mk 260 logitech mk 260 sony reciver hooked up to asus optical port 
OtherOther
2 blue cathode lights and 4 coolmax blue led f... Modright sleeved blue molex to sata x 4  
  hide details  
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
amd fx 6100 asus m5a97 msi radeon 6970 Msi radeon 6970  
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
corsair vengence BLUE  baracuda seagate 7200 rpm asus sata 24x drw thermaltake contac 30 cpu cooler 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
windows 7 home premium 64 bit LG 26 inch led 1900x1080 resolution logitech mk 260 coolermaster 750 watt gx bronze 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
coolermaster 430 elite logitech mk 260 logitech mk 260 sony reciver hooked up to asus optical port 
OtherOther
2 blue cathode lights and 4 coolmax blue led f... Modright sleeved blue molex to sata x 4  
  hide details  
post #180 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by nz3777 View Post

Iam just curious beacuse I recently switched to pc from xbox 360,what do u guys think the 360s get in frame rates as we speak? fps?

Most games get 30 fps, some get 60, and many games use a sub-HD framebuffer and then upscale to 720-1080p.
Foldatron
(17 items)
 
Mat
(10 items)
 
Work iMac
(9 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 950 EVGA x58 3-way SLI EVGA GTX 660ti GTX 275 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
3x2GB Corsair Dominator DDR3-1600 80GB Intel X25-M SSD 2TB WD Black 150GB WD Raptor 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
2x 150GB WD V-raptor in RAID0 Win7 Home 64-bit OEM 55" LED 120hz 1080p Vizio MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 
PowerCase
750W PC P&C Silencer CoolerMaster 690 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i5 2500S AMD 6770M 8GB (2x4GB) at 1333Mhz 1TB, 7200 rpm 
Optical DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
LG 8X Dual-Layer "SuperDrive" OS X Lion 27" iMac screen Mac wireless keyboard 
Mouse
Mac wireless mouse 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7-2600K AMD 6970M 1GB 16GB PC3-10600 DDR3 1TB 7200rpm 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
256GB SSD 8x DL "SuperDrive" OS X 10.7 Lion 27" 2560x1440 iMac display 
Monitor
27" Apple thunderbolt display 
  hide details  
Foldatron
(17 items)
 
Mat
(10 items)
 
Work iMac
(9 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 950 EVGA x58 3-way SLI EVGA GTX 660ti GTX 275 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
3x2GB Corsair Dominator DDR3-1600 80GB Intel X25-M SSD 2TB WD Black 150GB WD Raptor 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
2x 150GB WD V-raptor in RAID0 Win7 Home 64-bit OEM 55" LED 120hz 1080p Vizio MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 
PowerCase
750W PC P&C Silencer CoolerMaster 690 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i5 2500S AMD 6770M 8GB (2x4GB) at 1333Mhz 1TB, 7200 rpm 
Optical DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
LG 8X Dual-Layer "SuperDrive" OS X Lion 27" iMac screen Mac wireless keyboard 
Mouse
Mac wireless mouse 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7-2600K AMD 6970M 1GB 16GB PC3-10600 DDR3 1TB 7200rpm 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
256GB SSD 8x DL "SuperDrive" OS X 10.7 Lion 27" 2560x1440 iMac display 
Monitor
27" Apple thunderbolt display 
  hide details  
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Video Game News
This thread is locked  
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Video Game News › [GI] Remedy: Next-Gen consoles are a quantum leap