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[ARS]Inside the Second: Gaming performance with today's CPUs - Page 7

post #61 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by tout View Post

Do you make this stuff up all by yourself?
Of course the software is an issue with the FX line. Not the whole issue but rather, part of it. Windows does not know how to handle the CPU at this time. It's not utilizing the modules correctly. In addition, software is the weak link in everything gaming right now. Just look at how long quad core CPUs have been out and game developers still don't make games that properly utilize them. I'm not saying the FX line would suddenly be beating Intel's CPUs. Not by a long shot... but anyone with half a brain can realize that with a completely new CPU architecture the software has to catch up. If it ever does. AMD is small and I doubt there's many people working on scheduler fixes for their CPUs. Intel is king and where the money is, so anything to do with their CPUs will be worked on pronto and given top priority.
I have never seen a stable 24/7 overclock of a Phenom II CPU of 4.8 GHz and even if it was... it would blow my 4 GHz CPU out of the water in gaming performance. Which, by the way, runs Crysis like butter for me... on 2 video cards no less.

The problem with the software argument is that apparently it's incredibly hard to make an extremely well multithreaded game. In practice you're always going to have threads that require higher performance than others. That's why many multithreaded games still benefit from really high single core performance. So in the end while yes it might be an ideal situation to have perfectly multithreaded stuff it's really far fetched to assume that it can be done, even more so within a reasonable budget and schedule.

As for 4.8GHz phenom IIs; frosty has a single stage cooling setup. I know at least one other person on OCN who used to have a 4.8ghz x6 cooled by SS. Not that hard to believe when you look into how well phenom II actually scales with cold.
 
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post #62 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

As for 4.8GHz phenom IIs; frosty has a single stage cooling setup. I know at least one other person on OCN who used to have a 4.8ghz x6 cooled by SS. Not that hard to believe when you look into how well phenom II actually scales with cold.

Thank you thumb.gif

You should me latest build though biggrin.gif
post #63 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Frosty View Post

Well mine did.....
And I can guarantee it doesn't run Crysis butter smooth..

Then it wasn't 100% stable. If I can run it 50+ FPS at 4 GHz then your system was not working well... or had a gimpy GPU which was at fault.
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post #64 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

The problem with the software argument is that apparently it's incredibly hard to make an extremely well multithreaded game. In practice you're always going to have threads that require higher performance than others. That's why many multithreaded games still benefit from really high single core performance. So in the end while yes it might be an ideal situation to have perfectly multithreaded stuff it's really far fetched to assume that it can be done, even more so within a reasonable budget and schedule.
As for 4.8GHz phenom IIs; frosty has a single stage cooling setup. I know at least one other person on OCN who used to have a 4.8ghz x6 cooled by SS. Not that hard to believe when you look into how well phenom II actually scales with cold.

that usually only happens when they split the works from the main thread they split work down to each thread. the scheduling is then only in the main thread causing the need for the higher main thread performance
if it where written out completely for multiple threaded it would have a synchronizing scheduling to all threads to finish at the same time.
    
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post #65 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by tout View Post

Then it wasn't 100% stable. If I can run it 50+ FPS at 4 GHz then your system was not working well... or had a gimpy GPU which was at fault.

You really have no clue about SS do you?

And it would run 50fps average with 8xAA at 1920x1080 all settings DX10 Very High on 5850 Crossfire running 850Mhz cores.

Problem being it would drop down to single digits during heavy action scenes, just like yours does.

Run the 'Assault Harbor' Benchmark and watch that minimum frame rate sink well below 30fps
post #66 of 87
The hardware is just as good as the software that backs it up. Most games today only utilize two cores, with the exception of a few games such as BF3, which can use up to four cores.
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post #67 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by 06tb06 View Post

The hardware is just as good as the software that backs it up. Most games today only utilize two cores, with the exception of a few games such as BF3, which can use up to four cores.

Not really. One trouble with BF3 is that single player works very differently than multiplayer. Single player doesn't benefit beyond 2 cores. In the BF3 FPS test the difference between the fastest and slowest CPU was only 5 fps. It Arkham City the difference was 35 FPS! The CPU results are all similar in BF3 because single player is not cpu intensive; it doesn't matter what cpu you have.

Civilization 5 was actually the first game to use multi threaded directx. And its one of the games were bulldozer does poorly on. Just like any CPU intense games, like Starcraft 2.
Edited by erunion - 8/25/12 at 8:46pm
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post #68 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Frosty View Post

For months I've been telling AMD fanboys that Bulldozer offers crappy low end frame rates and this finally proves it....

The only game that the FX8 did well in was BF3 but that was to be expected as it uses all 8 threads, in everything else it got owned by budget end Intel chips and even it's older Phenom 2 chips.

It's practically matching the 980 and the 1100T in half of those other ones, it also has a much higher overclock ceiling than the PhIIs do and has much more headroom from stock than the 980 that would hit 400Mhz extra max unless you got a golden chip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

That's the interesting thing, it's actually a bit faster than the i5 despite everyone saying otherwise.

Who ever said the i5 was faster? The i7 turbos higher, has more cache, and even HT helps games more often than it hurts.

The i5 will have better gaming performance per dollar, which is why it's often recommended.

I've been hearing a lot of how HT actually hurts gaming, even recently, and how it's not worth going the i7 because it's no faster than the i5 at gaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Frosty View Post

People are still not getting it, the whole point of this article is to show the lowest frame rate and lag times, the article states that average frame rates are completely pointless and they are but yet AMD fan boys can't seem to get that into there skulls rolleyes.gif

Bottom end frame rates on AMD just flat out suck in every game but BF3

No, they don't suck in frame latency (This has nothing to do with frame-rates, just the latency between them), a PIII would suck in modern frame latency, an Athlon64 would, the AMD chips may not be up there with the 3770ks but they most certainly do not suck and are perfectly usable or you'd be seeing plenty of AMD users complaining about Microstutter in every game they play, for the price of a FX-4100 you can only get an i3 2120, I'd bet an overclocked FX-4100 would have lower latency than the near-stock i3 2120, although I wish they actually tested it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Frosty View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuell View Post

We all know BD isn't the best CPU arch but we can all agree that software is half the issue.

No it's not, software was just some lame ass excuse dreamt up by butt hurt AMD and Bulldozer owners to cover up the rubbish performance.

There's been patches released for Windows 7 - Little to no difference AT ALL...

There's Windows 8 - No performance increase AT ALL

Bulldozer just performs rubbish because of its low IPC, plain and simple... it's not a software issue its a hardware issue..

Please, read up on how software works before you post ignorance such as this; the patches increased performance very little for Win7 but it did help (iirc the difference was about the same as going from a 2600k to a 3770k) and Win8 has a definite provable performance increase for Bulldozer, plus if you knew anything about how compilers work then you'd know that optimising for the longer pipeline is different than optimising for a shorter pipeline, applications compiled for an PhII won't run as fast as they could on a BD or an SB, and visa versa.

The IPC argument? That's the mark of the ignorant and fanboys, anyone who is neither knows IPC means as much as clock speed on its own, I could have a chip with over 400% higher IPC than Ivy Bridge but if it doesn't clock over 1Ghz (A very likely scenario with such high IPC on current processes) then it won't beat a BD, let alone SB and IB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

Very interesting read. I would have wished to see some overclocked results as well and some very entry level chips as well, i3 and perhaps even the very bottom of the barrel, the Sempron 140/145 series. However, I do understand their time is limited even that investigation is quite interesting.

I agree, for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Frosty View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by phill1978 View Post

although its an inflamatory post .. i think your actually right to point out what you have. AMD cpu's have produced more Game LAG than intel. Im sure that feeling of something just seeming more fluid and quicker on your mates intel build was related to this

No the sheer difference between my old 4.8Ghz Phenom 2 x6 1075T and my 2500k was enough..

Single digits in Crysis during fire fights on the Phenom 2, never dips below 40fps on the 2500k during the same scenes..

Crysis 1? If so, I have no idea what the hell you were doing, but I was managing over 10 fps on a freaking Athlon XP @ 2Ghz with a 6800GS at all times when I played Crysis for the first time. (Second time was on a C2D and was a hell of a lot faster and better looking)

Also, what cooling were you on to get to 4.8Ghz? Chilled water?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celeras View Post



Pretty much what will happen in most games once you go clock-for-clock and push the GPU, which is why I could careless about upgrading my 1055T. It simply doesn't make enough of a difference when youre playing at settings where the GPU is the bottleneck.

Latency is what matters here, not FPS. You could have 800fps but if the latency is high then it won't be fluid, likewise if you have really low FPS with low latency it'll be more fluid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Frosty View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tout View Post

I have never seen a stable 24/7 overclock of a Phenom II CPU of 4.8 GHz

Well mine did.....

And I can guarantee it doesn't run Crysis butter smooth..

proof.gif

Seriously, CPU-z validation, screenshot of it doing a stress test for recommended times (1h for LinX, 6h P95, etc) with CPU-z showing it at 4.8Ghz. Even then I doubt it didn't run Crysis butter smooth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tout View Post

Do you make this stuff up all by yourself?
Of course the software is an issue with the FX line. Not the whole issue but rather, part of it. Windows does not know how to handle the CPU at this time. It's not utilizing the modules correctly. In addition, software is the weak link in everything gaming right now. Just look at how long quad core CPUs have been out and game developers still don't make games that properly utilize them. I'm not saying the FX line would suddenly be beating Intel's CPUs. Not by a long shot... but anyone with half a brain can realize that with a completely new CPU architecture the software has to catch up. If it ever does. AMD is small and I doubt there's many people working on scheduler fixes for their CPUs. Intel is king and where the money is, so anything to do with their CPUs will be worked on pronto and given top priority.
I have never seen a stable 24/7 overclock of a Phenom II CPU of 4.8 GHz and even if it was... it would blow my 4 GHz CPU out of the water in gaming performance. Which, by the way, runs Crysis like butter for me... on 2 video cards no less.

The problem with the software argument is that apparently it's incredibly hard to make an extremely well multithreaded game. In practice you're always going to have threads that require higher performance than others. That's why many multithreaded games still benefit from really high single core performance. So in the end while yes it might be an ideal situation to have perfectly multithreaded stuff it's really far fetched to assume that it can be done, even more so within a reasonable budget and schedule.

As for 4.8GHz phenom IIs; frosty has a single stage cooling setup. I know at least one other person on OCN who used to have a 4.8ghz x6 cooled by SS. Not that hard to believe when you look into how well phenom II actually scales with cold.

I guess it depends on the type of game, and the software argument extends to newer compilers optimising for BDs architecture which is substantially different to the previous Deneb one.

He's definitely lying about the single number FPS though, or he had something seriously wrong with that system, the CPU loading doesn't change too much with the graphical settings and I doubt a 2Ghz Athlon XP is even comparable to a Phenom II in gaming, let alone a Phenom II clocked nearly 3Ghz faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erunion View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06tb06 View Post

The hardware is just as good as the software that backs it up. Most games today only utilize two cores, with the exception of a few games such as BF3, which can use up to four cores.

Not really. One trouble with BF3 is that single player works very differently than multiplayer. Single player doesn't benefit beyond 2 cores. In the BF3 FPS test the difference between the fastest and slowest CPU was only 5 fps. It Arkham City the difference was 35 FPS! The CPU results are all similar in BF3 because single player is not cpu intensive; it doesn't matter what cpu you have.

Civilization 5 was actually the first game to use multi threaded directx. And its one of the games were bulldozer does poorly on. Just like any CPU intense games, like Starcraft 2.

Software is an issue, but mainly in that older software will be optimised for the Core 2/Core architecture or Deneb and not BDs, I do wonder how BD fairs in SupCom and FSX considering those can use up to 32 cores and 256 cores respectively iirc.
    
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post #69 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

The IPC argument? That's the mark of the ignorant and fanboys, anyone who is neither knows IPC means as much as clock speed on its own, I could have a chip with over 400% higher IPC than Ivy Bridge but if it doesn't clock over 1Ghz (A very likely scenario with such high IPC on current processes) then it won't beat a BD, let alone SB and IB.

That chip at 1ghz would still be as fast as a 4Ghz Ivy Bridge CPU so it would definitely be faster then BD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Crysis 1? If so, I have no idea what the hell you were doing, but I was managing over 10 fps on a freaking Athlon XP @ 2Ghz with a 6800GS at all times when I played Crysis for the first time. (Second time was on a C2D and was a hell of a lot faster and better looking)

I suggest you read what I said again, it was pulling 55fps average but serverly dropped during intense action, the later half of the 'Harbor' map killed the frame rate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Also, what cooling were you on to get to 4.8Ghz? Chilled water?

Seriously, that's already been pointed out and common sense should tell you by looking at my avatar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

proof.gif
Seriously, CPU-z validation, screenshot of it doing a stress test for recommended times (1h for LinX, 6h P95, etc) with CPU-z showing it at 4.8Ghz.

To be blunt I'm not posting any, I'm tired of posting up screens of the clock because people are too arrogant and uneducated to grasp and comprehend it, infact he's a screen of the temps instead.

Capture-4.png

And the system itself

2011-11-01135440.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

He's definitely lying about the single number FPS though, or he had something seriously wrong with that system

Typical fan boy comment from someone on damage control mode rolleyes.gif
post #70 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Frosty View Post

That chip at 1ghz would still be as fast as a 4Ghz Ivy Bridge CPU so it would definitely be faster then BD.
I suggest you read what I said again, it was pulling 55fps average but serverly dropped during intense action, the later half of the 'Harbor' map killed the frame rate.
Seriously, that's already been pointed out and common sense should tell you by looking at my avatar.
To be blunt I'm not posting any, I'm tired of posting up screens of the clock because people are too arrogant and uneducated to grasp and comprehend it, infact he's a screen of the temps instead.
(image)
And the system itself
(image)
Typical fan boy comment from someone on damage control mode rolleyes.gif

How you chill it? I'm just curious, compressor? I've herd of people using ice tubs, but that just seems... Idk, I'm betting there is a real slick way of doing it. I'd take apart a water cooler and make my own rig for it, would be a fun project if I had the tools/money.
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