Overclock.net › Forums › Case Mods & Cases › Other Hardware Mods › [Build Log] High Quality PC Speakers Design and Build
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[Build Log] High Quality PC Speakers Design and Build - Page 11

post #101 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvjessen View Post

Personally I don't have a preference between closed and vented tuning, as long as it's well executed. They both have advantages and disadvantages. A closed box is always a safe choice.

The biggest problem, besides poor quality, with many of the Logitech etc systems with "sub" is that the speaker are simple not capable of reaching low enough in frequency to successfully integrate with a sub. And what they call a sub isn't really a sub, it's more like a lower mid range/upper bass in a box. I do have a Logitech set myself, somewhere, but I haven't used it for a long time, I guess at the time I got it, I was a question of sound vs no sound smile.gif

I feel the best integration is when you cannot tell, by listening, where the sub is located, even if it's right next to you or behind you. For that to happen the crossover point must be below 70-80Hz, the lower the better. But using a sub is always a compromise, it can never compete with large speakers capable of producing low end on their own.
Indeed. The crossover points on most computer subs are always way too high simply because it's either tiny or simply because it is NOT crossover'd. Or badly tuned tongue.gif
Otherwise could be the driver itself having extremely steep rolloff therefore it can't be crossover'd for lower frequencies else it will sound like somebody kicking a cardboard box
Ayase Eli
(20 items)
 
Testbench
(10 items)
 
MC Server
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 7 1700 ASRock X370 SLI Killer Zotac GTX1070 "FE" with ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Crucial BallistiX Sport LP 16GB 8x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Zotac SSD Premium 480GB OCZ Vector 180 480GB Hitachi 7K3000 3TB 7200rpm ID Cooling Frostflow 240L 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Phanteks F140MP x2 CoolerMaster Silencio FP120 x2 Phanteks F140SP 
CoolingMonitorKeyboardPower
Delta AFB1212SH x2 Dell U2713HM CM Storm MECH FSP Aurum PT 1200 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Phanteks Enthoo Pro Logitech G102 Tesoro Aegis X3 Virtus.Pro AKG K7XX 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 6700k Gigabyte Z170X-UD5 Depends Depends 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorKeyboard
Plextor M5S Depends Dell U2312HM CM Storm Quickfire Rapid-i 
PowerMouse
FSP Aurum PT 1200 CM Storm Mizar 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 2600 4GHz Gigabyte Z77X D3H Intel HD Graphics 2000 obviously Kingston HyperX Genesis 4X4GB DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel 530 240GB Deepcool Captain 240 Arctic Cooling Bionix 140 Delta AFB1212L 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 Pro CoolerMaster G750M NZXT Switch 810 
  hide details  
Reply
Ayase Eli
(20 items)
 
Testbench
(10 items)
 
MC Server
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 7 1700 ASRock X370 SLI Killer Zotac GTX1070 "FE" with ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Crucial BallistiX Sport LP 16GB 8x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Zotac SSD Premium 480GB OCZ Vector 180 480GB Hitachi 7K3000 3TB 7200rpm ID Cooling Frostflow 240L 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Phanteks F140MP x2 CoolerMaster Silencio FP120 x2 Phanteks F140SP 
CoolingMonitorKeyboardPower
Delta AFB1212SH x2 Dell U2713HM CM Storm MECH FSP Aurum PT 1200 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Phanteks Enthoo Pro Logitech G102 Tesoro Aegis X3 Virtus.Pro AKG K7XX 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 6700k Gigabyte Z170X-UD5 Depends Depends 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorKeyboard
Plextor M5S Depends Dell U2312HM CM Storm Quickfire Rapid-i 
PowerMouse
FSP Aurum PT 1200 CM Storm Mizar 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 2600 4GHz Gigabyte Z77X D3H Intel HD Graphics 2000 obviously Kingston HyperX Genesis 4X4GB DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel 530 240GB Deepcool Captain 240 Arctic Cooling Bionix 140 Delta AFB1212L 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 Pro CoolerMaster G750M NZXT Switch 810 
  hide details  
Reply
post #102 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

Indeed. The crossover points on most computer subs are always way too high simply because it's either tiny or simply because it is NOT crossover'd. Or badly tuned tongue.gif
Otherwise could be the driver itself having extremely steep rolloff therefore it can't be crossover'd for lower frequencies else it will sound like somebody kicking a cardboard box

I believe the "kicking the box" sound is more related to internal reflections/standing waves hitting the back of the woofer cone, creating some heavy distortion.

It is possible we are thinking of different things here. When I think boomy I would describe it as a tuning with a bump in mid bass frequencies where when listening it can sound impressive at first, but paying a bit more attention you notice it's difficult to distinguish between e.g. a bass guitar and a kick drum and the bass seems only capable of producing a single note.

In my experience I would say, generally the roll off slope does not influence the sound quality, other than a slower roll off (from the same starting point) results in a deeper bass. There are no fixed rules for what the roll off will be (vented vs closed), it depends entirely on the tuning. It is a very large subject, where the room size, layout, furniture, treatment, construction materials etc. all play a role smile.gif
post #103 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvjessen View Post

I believe the "kicking the box" sound is more related to internal reflections/standing waves hitting the back of the woofer cone, creating some heavy distortion.

It is possible we are thinking of different things here. When I think boomy I would describe it as a tuning with a bump in mid bass frequencies where when listening it can sound impressive at first, but paying a bit more attention you notice it's difficult to distinguish between e.g. a bass guitar and a kick drum and the bass seems only capable of producing a single note.

In my experience I would say, generally the roll off slope does not influence the sound quality, other than a slower roll off (from the same starting point) results in a deeper bass. There are no fixed rules for what the roll off will be (vented vs closed), it depends entirely on the tuning. It is a very large subject, where the room size, layout, furniture, treatment, construction materials etc. all play a role smile.gif

Which is just one of the many reasons for running multiple subs even if one can easily reach the levels you require at a given frequency. Unfortunately I can only afford two 'good' subs (my ultra 12's) at the moment - but I'd really like to have 3 or 4 ideally. Not only do they reinforce each other, but make the bass nice and consistent throughout the space (and as long as you trap the corners somewhat) much less of that 'boominess' created by the room itself. I think part of what I like so much more in regards to my Ultra12s is that they are sealed (of course the extra 200W doesn't hurt) so there's less 'port chuff' than there is on the Polk... but part of it is also the horrible filters.

With mine, it's basically the problem of if the low-pass is set high enough to allow the sub to do something (since it has almost no power below 45Hz)... it's way too positional and congested but if it's set appropriately for pretty much any speakers I own... it might as well not be connected at all... hence it's role in keeping the carpet in my closet flat. smile.gif
post #104 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiGiCiDAL View Post

Which is just one of the many reasons for running multiple subs even if one can easily reach the levels you require at a given frequency. Unfortunately I can only afford two 'good' subs (my ultra 12's) at the moment - but I'd really like to have 3 or 4 ideally. Not only do they reinforce each other, but make the bass nice and consistent throughout the space (and as long as you trap the corners somewhat) much less of that 'boominess' created by the room itself. I think part of what I like so much more in regards to my Ultra12s is that they are sealed (of course the extra 200W doesn't hurt) so there's less 'port chuff' than there is on the Polk... but part of it is also the horrible filters.

With mine, it's basically the problem of if the low-pass is set high enough to allow the sub to do something (since it has almost no power below 45Hz)... it's way too positional and congested but if it's set appropriately for pretty much any speakers I own... it might as well not be connected at all... hence it's role in keeping the carpet in my closet flat. smile.gif

I think most mid/low range subs are designed to only be paired with very small speakers, my Polk says 60-180 Hz on the crossover dial, haven't checked if it's true, but at 60Hz it's already disqualified for even mid sized stand mounted speakers and honestly I'd be surprised if it's got full output down to 50Hz, even though the optimistic specs say 33Hz or something. Probably measures in the trunk of a car or some other confined space biggrin.gif

Yeah, it's very interesting to move around in a room with music playing and experience what effect the various room modes have. It's easy to get a 6.5" driver to reach down to. 40Hz, but when when comparing with e.g. a 12" not going any deeper than the 6.5" and playing at the same level, they sound really different, the larger cone area just gives so much more of a physical bass.

Agree with your approach of "beating the room into submission" biggrin.gif with multiple subs, much more control than attempts to smooth out all the room modes. Just hard to explain to wife or gf why you need 4 of those large boxes when everyone else only got 1. biggrin.gif But then again it would probably be equally hard to explain why you need 10 tube traps smile.gif

I have had a plan for some time to make a pair of 15" subs, I did do some designs and I would want to use a closed box as well, maybe 18x18x18" in size. Then use a compensation filter and a 500-600W amplifier to reach down below 20Hz with full output. It sounds like a lot of watt but to go that low in a "small" closed box it's really needed. A larger pro sub driver will start rolling off maybe at 80Hz in that size closed box, with a slope of ~12dB/octave. So at 40Hz it's already lost 12dB and at 20Hz that would be 24dB . So with an efficient 96dB/W driver and 600W it would theoretically produce a max output of 100dB at 20Hz and 1m distance, not super impressive wth.gif, but of course the room will help and the actual output would be higher, plus with 2 of them they would go both very loud and deep. I would really only want them to cover the area below 35 - 40Hz. Might be a bit insane though to spend $2K to build such a set just to cover frequencies below 35Hz, but I think it would be worth it.
post #105 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvjessen View Post

I believe the "kicking the box" sound is more related to internal reflections/standing waves hitting the back of the woofer cone, creating some heavy distortion.

It is possible we are thinking of different things here. When I think boomy I would describe it as a tuning with a bump in mid bass frequencies where when listening it can sound impressive at first, but paying a bit more attention you notice it's difficult to distinguish between e.g. a bass guitar and a kick drum and the bass seems only capable of producing a single note.

In my experience I would say, generally the roll off slope does not influence the sound quality, other than a slower roll off (from the same starting point) results in a deeper bass. There are no fixed rules for what the roll off will be (vented vs closed), it depends entirely on the tuning. It is a very large subject, where the room size, layout, furniture, treatment, construction materials etc. all play a role smile.gif

Badly tuned computer subs tongue.gif Vented subs are loud for their size but they often sound boomy and often have "kicking the box" effect if not tuned right
Ayase Eli
(20 items)
 
Testbench
(10 items)
 
MC Server
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 7 1700 ASRock X370 SLI Killer Zotac GTX1070 "FE" with ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Crucial BallistiX Sport LP 16GB 8x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Zotac SSD Premium 480GB OCZ Vector 180 480GB Hitachi 7K3000 3TB 7200rpm ID Cooling Frostflow 240L 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Phanteks F140MP x2 CoolerMaster Silencio FP120 x2 Phanteks F140SP 
CoolingMonitorKeyboardPower
Delta AFB1212SH x2 Dell U2713HM CM Storm MECH FSP Aurum PT 1200 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Phanteks Enthoo Pro Logitech G102 Tesoro Aegis X3 Virtus.Pro AKG K7XX 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 6700k Gigabyte Z170X-UD5 Depends Depends 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorKeyboard
Plextor M5S Depends Dell U2312HM CM Storm Quickfire Rapid-i 
PowerMouse
FSP Aurum PT 1200 CM Storm Mizar 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 2600 4GHz Gigabyte Z77X D3H Intel HD Graphics 2000 obviously Kingston HyperX Genesis 4X4GB DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel 530 240GB Deepcool Captain 240 Arctic Cooling Bionix 140 Delta AFB1212L 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 Pro CoolerMaster G750M NZXT Switch 810 
  hide details  
Reply
Ayase Eli
(20 items)
 
Testbench
(10 items)
 
MC Server
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 7 1700 ASRock X370 SLI Killer Zotac GTX1070 "FE" with ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Crucial BallistiX Sport LP 16GB 8x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Zotac SSD Premium 480GB OCZ Vector 180 480GB Hitachi 7K3000 3TB 7200rpm ID Cooling Frostflow 240L 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Phanteks F140MP x2 CoolerMaster Silencio FP120 x2 Phanteks F140SP 
CoolingMonitorKeyboardPower
Delta AFB1212SH x2 Dell U2713HM CM Storm MECH FSP Aurum PT 1200 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Phanteks Enthoo Pro Logitech G102 Tesoro Aegis X3 Virtus.Pro AKG K7XX 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 6700k Gigabyte Z170X-UD5 Depends Depends 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorKeyboard
Plextor M5S Depends Dell U2312HM CM Storm Quickfire Rapid-i 
PowerMouse
FSP Aurum PT 1200 CM Storm Mizar 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 2600 4GHz Gigabyte Z77X D3H Intel HD Graphics 2000 obviously Kingston HyperX Genesis 4X4GB DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel 530 240GB Deepcool Captain 240 Arctic Cooling Bionix 140 Delta AFB1212L 
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 Pro CoolerMaster G750M NZXT Switch 810 
  hide details  
Reply
post #106 of 124
If you want a fun read - since it has nothing to do with OC'ing or even PCs for that matter I assume I can post it:

Warpdrv's Dually 18" custom subs... biggrin.gif

Not the last word in accuracy I'm sure - but they definitely give new meaning to 'authoritative' as far as subs are concerned.

It's like the subwoofer equivalent of Stren's CaseLabs TX10 + Pedestal build on here. biggrin.gif
Edited by DiGiCiDAL - 3/6/13 at 8:20pm
post #107 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiGiCiDAL View Post

If you want a fun read - since it has nothing to do with OC'ing or even PCs for that matter I assume I can post it:

Warpdrv's Dually 18" custom subs... biggrin.gif

Not the last word in accuracy I'm sure - but they definitely give new meaning to 'authoritative' as far as subs are concerned.

WOW, that is insane , must have set him back $20K or something. I hope he never unplugs the signal cable by mistake while the amps are powered, I wouldn't want to be in the house if that happened smile.gif .. I would probably have prioritized that spending a bit differently, but he is likely already working on even larger subs by now biggrin.gif ..

While it might be true, I have to admit I always find drivers with a continuous power specification in the KW range questionable, just think about all the heat it must generate with 2x2000W, I guess fireproof dampening material is a requirement for closed box designs smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiGiCiDAL View Post


It's like the subwoofer equivalent of Stren's CaseLabs TX10 + Pedestal build on here. biggrin.gif

As insane as it is, I feel this build is very reasonable compared to those sub woofers. smile.gif
post #108 of 124
Very impressive. Great work as always cheers.gif
 
Play Server
(10 items)
 
NAS
(14 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardRAM
Intel Xeon L5640 Intel Xeon L5640 Dell R710 Mobo Hynix 144GB DDR3 ECC PC3L-10600R 
Hard DrivePowerCaseOther
Intel X25-M G2 80GB Redundant 840W PSU Dell 710 2.5" - Google Search Appliance Dell Perc H700 Raid Controller 
OtherOther
Dell iDRAC6 Enterprise Mellanox Connectx-2 10Gb SFP+ NIC 
CPUCPUMotherboardRAM
Intel Xeon E5-2670 v1 Intel Xeon E5-2670 v1 SuperMicro X9DRL-iF 64GB Kingston ECC (kvr16r11d4/16HA) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
12x 4TB HGST 5K4000 SanDisk SSD 960GB (cache) 6x 8TB WD Red Scythe AP-29 
CoolingOSPowerCase
2x Noctua U9DXi4 FreeNAS Corsair AX750 Norco RPC-4224 
OtherOther
3x LSI 9211-8i (HBA) Mellanox Connectx-2 10Gb NIC 
  hide details  
Reply
 
Play Server
(10 items)
 
NAS
(14 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardRAM
Intel Xeon L5640 Intel Xeon L5640 Dell R710 Mobo Hynix 144GB DDR3 ECC PC3L-10600R 
Hard DrivePowerCaseOther
Intel X25-M G2 80GB Redundant 840W PSU Dell 710 2.5" - Google Search Appliance Dell Perc H700 Raid Controller 
OtherOther
Dell iDRAC6 Enterprise Mellanox Connectx-2 10Gb SFP+ NIC 
CPUCPUMotherboardRAM
Intel Xeon E5-2670 v1 Intel Xeon E5-2670 v1 SuperMicro X9DRL-iF 64GB Kingston ECC (kvr16r11d4/16HA) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
12x 4TB HGST 5K4000 SanDisk SSD 960GB (cache) 6x 8TB WD Red Scythe AP-29 
CoolingOSPowerCase
2x Noctua U9DXi4 FreeNAS Corsair AX750 Norco RPC-4224 
OtherOther
3x LSI 9211-8i (HBA) Mellanox Connectx-2 10Gb NIC 
  hide details  
Reply
post #109 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deafboy View Post

Very impressive. Great work as always cheers.gif

Thanks smile.gif I guess I can't stop building stuff biggrin.gif
post #110 of 124
This is wicked mate, as an Audiophile myself I am watching this with anticipation thumb.gif
Ni-Ten-Ichi-Ryu
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 4790k [Stock / 1.15v] Asus Maximus VII Gene Zotac GTX1070 Founder's Edition 16GB Samsung LV Green [2.4Ghz / 10 - 11 - 11 - ... 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Corsair Force 3 [120GB] [x2] Seagate 7200.14 [2TB] LG Blu - Ray Writer [Slot Loading] Noctua NH-U12P SE2 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 10 x64 LG 29UM68 Dell U2412M Microsoft Sidewinder X4 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
eVGA Supernova 750W G2 [White Braided Cables] Corsair Obsidian 350D [High Airflow Kit] Steelseries Sensei Steelseries QCK 
AudioAudio
Presonus Firestudio Yamaha HS-7 / Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro / Sennheis... 
  hide details  
Reply
Ni-Ten-Ichi-Ryu
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 4790k [Stock / 1.15v] Asus Maximus VII Gene Zotac GTX1070 Founder's Edition 16GB Samsung LV Green [2.4Ghz / 10 - 11 - 11 - ... 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Corsair Force 3 [120GB] [x2] Seagate 7200.14 [2TB] LG Blu - Ray Writer [Slot Loading] Noctua NH-U12P SE2 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 10 x64 LG 29UM68 Dell U2412M Microsoft Sidewinder X4 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
eVGA Supernova 750W G2 [White Braided Cables] Corsair Obsidian 350D [High Airflow Kit] Steelseries Sensei Steelseries QCK 
AudioAudio
Presonus Firestudio Yamaha HS-7 / Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro / Sennheis... 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Other Hardware Mods
Overclock.net › Forums › Case Mods & Cases › Other Hardware Mods › [Build Log] High Quality PC Speakers Design and Build