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Bios temperature readings vs software readings (hardware monitor) - Page 4

post #31 of 41
Quote:
AMD says my chip has a [INSERT SPEC] Celsius limit, what value is this referring to? This limit seems kind of low, why?

This is referring to "Core Temp" of course.

So for example Phenom IIs have a recommended 62C "Core Temp" limit while not exceeding 60C for extended periods.

It has long been argued that the recommended limit is merely a larger safety net. There is a thermal shutdown in the chip at 90C and the silicone is rated for 97C+, so it seems plausable that we could indeed go higher, but this guide (and most in general) will simply *nod* and point you to the recommended limit for your chip.

Source: AMD Temp Information and Guide

Aside from that, no clue over motherboards really, thought they still used physical sensors. If they do or don't, it still doesn't mean a whole lot, though I have noticed with Overdrive that my core temperatures actually report a little better at idle, so maybe that applies some internal calibration. Still different than the socket, though.

EDIT: Wanted to add, I have a fairly high tolerance for heat. The backplate for my UD3 actually got physically painful to touch, it was actually quite scary. Also one of the reasons I dropped my OC back to 4.05, that board was HOT. But apparently, it wasn't enough. Odd that it worked for over a year at 4.2, and died about 2 days after setting it to 4.05. vCore at time of death was reading a "meh" 1.408.
Edited by mezmenir - 8/26/12 at 7:17am
    
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post #32 of 41
That guide contains contradictions, and what information is accurate seems to have been poorly interpreted.

If the core temps are TCTL, as the guide states, then they are not the rated temps commonly listed, as those are explicitly TCASE according to AMD.

If the ~62C rated Phenom II temperature in question is represented by "core temp" then it is TCASE.

TCTL and TCASE are not the same and, neither TCTL nor TCASE are the same as actual on-die CPU temps.

Reference the white paper I linked in my earlier post, especially the notes on page 60.

Anyway, I strongly suspect that HWmonitor and other monitoring software are using "CPU cores" to display estimated tCASE, and "CPU" to display tCL (or possibly vice versa).

As for backplate vs. CPU temps, painful to the touch is only 60C or so. A lidded CPU at maximum rated temp is going to be much hotter than that on-die, but on die temps aren't reported anywhere.
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post #33 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

That guide contains contradictions, and what information is accurate seems to have been poorly interpreted.
If the core temps are TCTL, as the guide states, then they are not the rated temps commonly listed, as those are explicitly TCASE according to AMD.
If the ~62C rated Phenom II temperature in question is represented by "core temp" then it is TCASE.
TCTL and TCASE are not the same and, neither TCTL nor TCASE are the same as actual on-die CPU temps.
Reference the white paper I linked in my earlier post, especially the notes on page 60.
Anyway, I strongly suspect that HWmonitor and other monitoring software are using "CPU cores" to display estimated tCASE, and "CPU" to display tCL (or possibly vice versa).
As for backplate vs. CPU temps, painful to the touch is only 60C or so. A lidded CPU at maximum rated temp is going to be much hotter than that on-die, but on die temps aren't reported anywhere.

Will do because now you make me curious, and obviously, I didn't write the guide, but it definitely seemed alright. Second opinions generally aren't a bad thing. Going to go look at the black and white from AMD.

60C is hotter than my CPU cores (at least their measurement lolamd) seeing as mine generally stop around 50. Which would put it more in line with the socket temperature that the board reports. I'm terrible with Celsius. Though, with a newer BIOS revision on the UD3 and the latest overdrive before it died- the core temperatures reported unusually high at idle, come to find out, the socket temp didn't change. So, what you say makes sense- maybe AMD's software guys slipped that one in there.
    
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post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by mezmenir View Post

60C is hotter than my CPU cores (at least their measurement lolamd) seeing as mine generally stop around 50. Which would put it more in line with the socket temperature that the board reports.

The issue is that "CPU Cores" reading in software monitoring programs is not representative of the actual internal on-die/core temperature and was never intended to be by AMD. It's estimated tCASE (or IHS temp). True core temps will be ~20C higher, but there is no provision for this measurement, nor any official ratings for it on AMDs lidded chips.

This is where that response from AMD comes in. They say the "CPU Core" readings match up to 62C. 62C is the maximum TCASE rating in the AMD whitepaper for the CPU model in question.

AMD isn't saying 62C is core temps, but that the "CPU Core" measurement is mislabeled.

This is why reported AMD and Intel temps aren't comparable, because there are provisions with Intel chips and most software to read the estimated on-die temps, but with AMD you are stuck with a tCASE/tCTL reading/estimate only.

I say estimated because the sensor (at leas tone of them) is actually on-die, but it's calibrated to report tCTL, which is apparently further translated to a guess of what tCASE is. The only accurate way to get a direct tCASE reading is to mill a trench in the IHS and solder or epoxy a thermal probe to the geometric center of the IHS.
Edited by Blameless - 8/26/12 at 8:11am
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post #35 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

The issue is that "CPU Cores" reading in software monitoring programs is not representative of the actual internal on-die/core temperature and was never intended to be by AMD. It's estimated tCASE (or IHS temp). True core temps will be ~20C higher, but there is no provision for this measurement, nor any official ratings for it on AMDs lidded chips.
This is where that response from AMD comes in. They say the "CPU Core" readings match up to 62C. 62C is the maximum TCASE rating in the AMD whitepaper for the CPU model in question.
AMD isn't saying 62C is core temps, but that the "CPU Core" measurement is mislabeled.
This is why reported AMD and Intel temps aren't comparable, because there are provisions with Intel chips and most software to read the estimated on-die temps, but with AMD you are stuck with a tCASE/tCTL reading/estimate only.
I say estimated because the sensor (at leas tone of them) is actually on-die, but it's calibrated to report tCTL, which is apparently further translated to a guess of what tCASE is. The only accurate way to get a direct tCASE reading is to mill a trench in the IHS and solder or epoxy a thermal probe to the geometric center of the IHS.

Well thank you for the information, and +rep. You really should go adjust the AMD temperature guide, after looking at the white paper, it makes a worlds more sense. Though to be honest, I never did understand how the temperatures "worked", well that is rather difficult to explain. Uh, how they managed to have a core temperature that was lower than the socket (aka IHS, motherboard, whatever)- it would have to have >100% thermal efficiency, and we could only dream of such. I always just assumed (along with many others) that the original guide was right because the sensor was physically on the board, where it was actually hotter than the cores (via bad airflow, or VRMs, what have you- or just a crappy sensor). Something to that effect.

That document actually has a lot of useful information in it, +rep for that alone. Lol

And yes, I do remember seeing a thread about that somewhere before. The notched IHS with a thermal probe, followed by liquid nitrogen.
    
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post #36 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by mezmenir View Post

You really should go adjust the AMD temperature guide, after looking at the white paper, it makes a worlds more sense.

I believe the majority of these points have been raised in the rest of the temp guide thread, but the OP simply hasn't been updated in a while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mezmenir View Post

Though to be honest, I never did understand how the temperatures "worked", well that is rather difficult to explain

Yeah, getting a straight answer out of AMD has been difficult, especially as the people who would know unambiguous answers are probably not the ones answering emails. And then you have even more ambiguous motherboard manufacturers.
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post #37 of 41
Lol, don't use "C" after core temps, they are not celcius. It's a different formulated and estimated reading which has no relation to cpu socket. And the max temps for thubans on AMD's site also has no "C" after them which means what you see on AMD Overdrive (or the other applications similar to those of AMD Overdrive) are the actual reading the cpu sends. Therefore, the max limits and shutdown threshold is according to that formulated Core reading, NOT the socket or actual Celcius.

So, It's irrelevant that the core reading is 50 and the real Celcius might be 70c. AMD states 62 of core temp(not celcius) is ok. The commonly accepted core reading of 55 when overclocked is the estimated max temp REGARDS to chip life expectancy compared to regular 62 max. Right or wrong, noone proved it, and i doubt it's useful to even try proving.

I think almost all motherboards since 2003-2005 use real temp sensors.
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WD5001AALS-00L3B2 (Now External) ASUS DRW-1814BLT Noctua NH-u12p SE2 Windows 10 Pro 
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Asus VH242H Wobbly Stand :) Microsoft Ergo 4000 Enermax Infiniti 650 (28a,28a,30a) Cooler Master haf 912 Advanced 
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A4tech x7 F3 Sunbeam RHK-EX-BA Rheobus-Extreme Fan Controlle... 
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Phenom II x6 1090t BE 3.6/4.0 Turbo@def.volt MSI K9A2 Platinum v1 Sapphire HD6850 1GB 850/1100@def.volt Kingston 2x2gb Hyperx 1066 5-5-5-15 
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Western Digital WD5001AALS Seagate Barracuda ST3250410AS Asus DRW-1814BLT Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1 
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Asus VH242H 23.6" Wobbly Stand :D Microsoft Ergo 4000 Enermax Infiniti 650w (28a,28a,30a) Thermaltake Kandalf SuperTower 
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post #38 of 41
All these temperatures are listed in degrees Celsius, everywhere.

True core temps aren't higher than the reported "core temps" not because Celsius isn't used, but because monitoring programs have it mislabeled, that is all. Instead of "CPU Core" it should say "tCASE".
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post #39 of 41
Yep, since we all know it's not a real probe, it can not be Celcius. It's a temp reading of AMD biggrin.gif Even AMD Overdrive says C, so everyone thinks its really Celcius. Then noone could explain 14c idle, 30c load temp on overclocked cpus. Some cpus on some motherboards were like that. That's the reason why people used +15c to compansate biggrin.gif
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WD5001AALS-00L3B2 (Now External) ASUS DRW-1814BLT Noctua NH-u12p SE2 Windows 10 Pro 
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Asus VH242H Wobbly Stand :) Microsoft Ergo 4000 Enermax Infiniti 650 (28a,28a,30a) Cooler Master haf 912 Advanced 
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A4tech x7 F3 Sunbeam RHK-EX-BA Rheobus-Extreme Fan Controlle... 
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Western Digital WD5001AALS Seagate Barracuda ST3250410AS Asus DRW-1814BLT Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1 
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Asus VH242H 23.6" Wobbly Stand :D Microsoft Ergo 4000 Enermax Infiniti 650w (28a,28a,30a) Thermaltake Kandalf SuperTower 
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post #40 of 41
Not a real probe? There is at least one physical thermistor somewhere on die. The problem is that it's use to estimate temperatures it cannot directly measure.

Reported temperatures are still on the Celsius scale, even if they aren't always accurate or representative.
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Plextor M6e 128GB (fw 1.05) M.2 (PCI-E 2.0 2x) 2x Crucial M4 256GB 4x WD Scorpio Black 500GB Cooler Master Nepton 280L 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
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CaseMouseAudio
Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
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X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Reference R9 290X w/Stilt's MLU 1000e / 1375m E... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
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Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
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ASUS Xonar DS 
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