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[Register] Microsoft denies Windows 8 app spying via SmartScreen - Page 2

post #11 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

I already said this in another thread, but since most people chose to ignore what I said, I'll say it again:
1. Microsoft has the technical means to do it and that is all that matters, so you believe what you want, what they said is PR, made even more clear when they state in very vague terms that they delete the data periodically, without stating exactly how much time they hold on to that data.
2. In all of this discussion people forgot to ask the main question: the way SmartScreen works is not the only way to achieve the same protection. Why doesn't SmartScreen just download a list from Microsoft, just like Windows Defender (which now includes Anti-virus protection in Windows 8) does for malware in general, and just check against that list, exactly how Anti-virus programs work ? Why is it that to have the protection, you curiously have to give Microsoft details about the files you download, along with your IP ? Anybody thought about that little detail ? Why can't you have both security and privacy ?

I have the means to strangle my neighbour to death.

I should probably be locked away.

After all, the fact that I have the means to do it is all that matters, correct?

How does a person hailing the "they're after us" crowd then go on to become one of those very same people they are afraid of by attempting to incriminate people "just in case" due to the fact that a possibility exists that wrong doing may happen. Totally ignoring any opposing (and much more likely) possibility,

Its like minority report, except the good guys decide to take over the system and use it against everyone else under the guise that it will stop the system.....
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 8/27/12 at 4:20pm
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post #12 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

I already said this in another thread, but since most people chose to ignore what I said, I'll say it again:
1. Microsoft has the technical means to do it and that is all that matters, so you believe what you want, what they said is PR, made even more clear when they state in very vague terms that they delete the data periodically, without stating exactly how much time they hold on to that data.
2. In all of this discussion people forgot to ask the main question: the way SmartScreen works is not the only way to achieve the same protection. Why doesn't SmartScreen just download a list from Microsoft, just like Windows Defender (which now includes Anti-virus protection in Windows 8) does for malware in general, and just check against that list, exactly how Anti-virus programs work ? Why is it that to have the protection, you curiously have to give Microsoft details about the files you download, along with your IP ? Anybody thought about that little detail ? Why can't you have both security and privacy ?

I have the means to strangle my neighbour to death.

I should probably be locked away.

After all, the fact that I have the means to do it is all that matters, correct?

How does a person hailing the "they're after us" crowd then go on to become one of those very same people they are afraid of by attempting to incriminate people "just in case" due to the fact that a possibility exists that wrong doing may happen. Totally ignoring any opposing possibility,

Its like minority report, except the good guys decide to take over the system and use it against everyone else under the guise that it will stop the system.....

You're completely distorting what I said. Address my two points together (you didn't even address the vagueness when they said they deleted the data "periodically" that I pointed out in the first point), then it'll make sense.
 
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post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

I have the means to strangle my neighbour to death.
I should probably be locked away.
After all, the fact that I have the means to do it is all that matters, correct?

Ah, so you ARE a gun owner in a Liberal State and you DO understand.

biggrin.gif
post #14 of 22
Let's face it nothing we do on the world wide web is safe from prying eyes.
 
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post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

You're completely distorting what I said. Address my two points together (you didn't even address the vagueness when they said they deleted the data "periodically" that I pointed out in the first point), then it'll make sense.

More twisted logic.

Replying to point A is invalid because I didn't reply to point B or C, even though point A isn't actually directly related to either B or C.

I don't need to reply to your opinion that what they said is PR or explain why they don't use offline definition files to disagree with your idea that an entities ability to do something is linearly related to their determination.

The OCN servers could actually be recording IP addresses/chat logs, the whole works and sending it to government officials to look through and find "bad apples".

Which means OCN and its owners are not to be trusted at all. Its actually a wonder that you're even being so open about your watchfulness of "the system" right now.......

After all, OCN do have the technological means to do so and that's all that matters, correct?

Doesn't that scare you to death?

Don't even get me started on ISPs!
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 8/27/12 at 4:38pm
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post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

I already said this in another thread, but since most people chose to ignore what I said, I'll say it again:

1. Microsoft has the technical means to do it and that is all that matters, so you believe what you want, what they said is PR, made even more clear when they state in very vague terms that they delete the data periodically, without stating exactly how much time they hold on to that data.

2. In all of this discussion people forgot to ask the main question: the way SmartScreen works is not the only way to achieve the same protection. Why doesn't SmartScreen just download a list from Microsoft, just like Windows Defender (which now includes Anti-virus protection in Windows 8) does for malware in general, and just check against that list, exactly how Anti-virus programs work ? Why is it that to have the protection, you curiously have to give Microsoft details about the files you download, along with your IP ? Anybody thought about that little detail ? Why can't you have both security and privacy ?

Answer to 2:

If the "list" was stored locally, a virus/other sort of malware can easily modify that list to spoof itself as a safe "program," keeping itself (and any other applications the cybercriminal wants to install once they have access) hidden from SmartScreen. thumb.gif

What ? By that logic Anti-virus programs would be useless because the virus would just detect the signature in the Anti-virus program and hide itself. Hey let's just make all Anti-virus programs on-line only. Of course the list would not be in plain text, it would come encrypted, along with other protection mechanisms. Also, SmartScreen also works with websites, your logic doesn't apply to that.

And there are viruses that do that... A virus can hide itself by picking up the antivirus's request to check infected files. It handles the request itself, and "shows" the antivirus an uninfected version of itself. SmartScreen is simply doing the same thing with the list not being locally stored, which I'd say is Microsoft's new approach to "the problem." SmartScreen so far hasn't been much of annoyance to me. It's come up maybe twice when I launched installers of programs made by small freeware developers that probably just haven't gotten their stuff signed for Windows 8.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 8/27/12 at 4:45pm
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post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

You're completely distorting what I said. Address my two points together (you didn't even address the vagueness when they said they deleted the data "periodically" that I pointed out in the first point), then it'll make sense.

More twisted logic.

Replying to point A is invalid because I didn't reply to point B or C, even though point A isn't actually directly related to either B or C.

I don't need to reply to your beliefs that what they said is PR or explain to you why they don't use offline definition files to disagree with your idea that an entities ability to do something is linearly related to their determination.

It's not twisted logic, you're the one who came up with a sensationalistic example to try to counter-argument what I said, when what I said is all facts. I have every reason to believe that they are not having our best privacy interests in consideration.

1. They have the technical means to do it. FACT.

2. They were vague when they said they delete the data periodically, without stating exactly for how long they hold on to the data. FACT

Does that make you confident that they are protecting your privacy ? It doesn't to me. Remember how deleting photos on Facebook didn't actually work for months, if not years ?, Ars Technica did a few articles on that.

3. SmartScreen could work by downloading a file and checking against that file, just like Anti-virus programs work, and then there would be no discussion, you would have security and privacy. FACT.

If you wanted to, you could opt to send statistics about what SmartScreen found from time to time. Much more sensible approach. You would get the security, and the privacy. If you wanted, you could let go of the privacy.

The difference between you and me is that I mentioned facts that should make people think, whereas you decided to reply to a single sentence from my post, in the end you are taking things out of context and basically giving Microsoft a good dose of goodwill when there is nothing to warrant that.

This is not about going against them without evidence, it's about not being naive, and be cautious. I'm sure you know a few people in life that you can't legally prove did something wrong, yet you have good clues that tell you to stay away from them, right ? Same thing here.
Edited by tpi2007 - 8/27/12 at 4:58pm
 
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post #18 of 22
And I have the means to kill my neighbour. FACT.

What of it?
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post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

I already said this in another thread, but since most people chose to ignore what I said, I'll say it again:

1. Microsoft has the technical means to do it and that is all that matters, so you believe what you want, what they said is PR, made even more clear when they state in very vague terms that they delete the data periodically, without stating exactly how much time they hold on to that data.

2. In all of this discussion people forgot to ask the main question: the way SmartScreen works is not the only way to achieve the same protection. Why doesn't SmartScreen just download a list from Microsoft, just like Windows Defender (which now includes Anti-virus protection in Windows 8) does for malware in general, and just check against that list, exactly how Anti-virus programs work ? Why is it that to have the protection, you curiously have to give Microsoft details about the files you download, along with your IP ? Anybody thought about that little detail ? Why can't you have both security and privacy ?

Answer to 2:

If the "list" was stored locally, a virus/other sort of malware can easily modify that list to spoof itself as a safe "program," keeping itself (and any other applications the cybercriminal wants to install once they have access) hidden from SmartScreen. thumb.gif

What ? By that logic Anti-virus programs would be useless because the virus would just detect the signature in the Anti-virus program and hide itself. Hey let's just make all Anti-virus programs on-line only. Of course the list would not be in plain text, it would come encrypted, along with other protection mechanisms. Also, SmartScreen also works with websites, your logic doesn't apply to that.

And there are viruses that do that... A virus can hide itself by picking up the antivirus's request to check infected files. It handles the request itself, and "shows" the antivirus an uninfected version of itself. SmartScreen is simply doing the same thing with the list not being locally stored, which I'd say is Microsoft's new approach to "the problem." SmartScreen so far hasn't been much of annoyance to me. It's come up maybe twice when I launched installers of programs made by small freeware developers that probably just haven't gotten their stuff signed for Windows 8.

Yes, and I bet that there are also viruses that can detect SmartScreen requests, handle the request themselves and provide a fake clean answer. There is no completely safe method to do things, it's just that some preserve your privacy and some don't.
Edited by tpi2007 - 8/27/12 at 4:58pm
 
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post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Yes, and I bet that there are also viruses that can detect SmartScreen requests, handle the request themselves and provide a fake clean answer. There is no completely safe method to do things, it's just that some preserve your privacy and some don't.

Source?
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