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[Wired] Astronomers Discover Millions of New Black Holes and a Rare Type of Galaxy - Page 12

post #111 of 149
8/31/12 at 6:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

In general, almost all galaxies are moving away from all other galaxies, so as far as each galaxy is concerned, it is the center of the universe, because all other motion is relative to its frame of reference. It's been proven that most galaxies are moving away from each other, but I have trouble wrapping my head around there being no real center to the universe. Of course, I'm picturing the universe as an expanding sphere with a 3D coordinate system, I've heard it described almost like a ball that everything is on the surface of, but if that were the case how do you move in 3D if you're on a surface? It seems as if this isn't yet known however: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_Universe

yah thats how i see it too, rather i see if as an infinite sandbox where there is no end that we could ever witness.

Carl Sagan said something once that has been part orf my thinking for a long time now, That we are made of trillions of particle, that we are in ourself our own universe. And that intrigues me because when we finally were finally able to know how infinitely small an atom really is, and how amazingly far away the pieces of the aton are and Far from other atoms, that I cant Help but be reminded of our universe, SOlar Systems and Galaxies , the distance between stars and galaxies and galaxy clusters, its when You Zoom out from the atom, do you then start to see the picture.

For all we could ever know, that which we call the universe, when stepped back far enough, could be the structure of something else. what we know as the universe could simply be hiding in something or someone which we are either so infinitely tiny that we could never see it, or that it is so infinitely huge that we could never see it.

We could be a Kids Science Project and contained within a Marble, even if we got to the very edge of that marble, do you really think you could "see" what was beyond it and truly comprehend it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidpain View Post

Has anyone ever wondered if there is anything beyond our Universe? As in, beyond the beyond? They has to be SOMETHING!

yah thats what Im sayin, if things can be so tiny and beyond small, and things can be so beyond and Beyond Big, then How Big and How Small can things really get?
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post #112 of 149
8/31/12 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyrical View Post

How many people who read that article ran "test for themselves" and confirm that it is true?
Sorry to bring it to you, but many things in science are beliefs to most people. It's simple, you read an article about something like this, and you believe it. I'm not saying these things don't exist or that it's not true, but I'm pointing out that most reader's read this and believe it is true. You trust the article and those scientists.
Let's be honest here and speak reality, you read that article, and you believe what it told you.
To the average person, there's some things in science that is not as simple as walking outside and confirming that the moon exists. Many other things in science are beliefs to us, whether you disagree or not, my point is TRUE.

Nope. Still not TRUE. Science is not, and will never be a belief system. It's either true or false, no belief or faith involved. A bunch of math (espectially when in physics) confirms or rejects hypothesis's.

I'd trust a bunch of "scientists" over a bunch of laymen with their "beliefs" anyday.

THIS is the problem with the US education system today. This is why our "knowledge quota" is going down the crapper.

Do you even understand how these things are tested by many and peer-reviewed for accuracy?

idontwanttoliveonthisplanetanymore.jpg
Quote:
Science:
1.
a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2.
systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3.
any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4.
systematized knowledge in general.
5.
knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.

Notice the term systematic?
Edited by Nocturin - 8/31/12 at 8:45am
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post #113 of 149
8/31/12 at 9:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturin View Post

Nope. Still not TRUE. Science is not, and will never be a belief system. It's either true or false, no belief or faith involved. A bunch of math (espectially when in physics) confirms or rejects hypothesis's.
I'd trust a bunch of "scientists" over a bunch of laymen with their "beliefs" anyday.
THIS is the problem with the US education system today. This is why our "knowledge quota" is going down the crapper.
Do you even understand how these things are tested by many and peer-reviewed for accuracy?
idontwanttoliveonthisplanetanymore.jpg
Notice the term systematic?

It is absolutely useless to try and argue why "Science" is real.

You are trying to use logic against an argument that contained no logic to start with.

Let them use the first amendment and speak their mind and ignore them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidpain View Post

Has anyone ever wondered if there is anything beyond our Universe? As in, beyond the beyond? They has to be SOMETHING!

Actually, the current theory, is arguing that infact the Universe is its own container.

Now the next logical step is to ask "How can the Universe expand if it has nothing to expand into?"

The weird answer is... itself. It actually is expanding into itself.

Think of a balloon surface. The surface only. Inflate it, what happens?

The next logical question is "The surface is 2D, psssh... the Universe is 3D! So how does this fit?"

Well actually, the Universe is 3D and it expands into itself through the 4th dimension.

I'm no scientist and I can't begin to explain the details... but I believe that is the current theory.


So ironically, the Universe is believed to be infinite and bounded (by itself).

The answer to your question... There is nothing beyond "The Universe" because it covers everything.

Yes this hurts my brain too.
Edited by kennyparker1337 - 8/31/12 at 9:51am
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post #114 of 149
8/31/12 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyparker1337 View Post

It is absolutely useless to try and argue why "Science" is real.
You are trying to use logic against an argument that contained no logic to start with.
Let them use the first amendment and speak their mind and ignore them.
Actually, the current theory, is arguing that infact the Universe is its own container.
Now the next logical step is to ask "How can the Universe expand if it has nothing to expand into?"
The weird answer is... itself. It actually is expanding into itself.
Think of a balloon surface. The surface only. Inflate it, what happens?
The next logical question is "The surface is 2D, psssh... the Universe is 3D! So how does this fit?"
Well actually, the Universe is 3D and it expands into itself through the 4th dimension.
I'm no scientist and I can't begin to explain the details... but I believe that is the current theory.
So ironically, the Universe is believed to be infinite and bounded (by itself).
The answer to your question... There is nothing beyond "The Universe" because it covers everything.
Yes this hurts my brain too.

Aye. I fell into the trap. redface.gif
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post #115 of 149
8/31/12 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shmerrick View Post

God I love science. I wish we could go the speed of light; if not faster. sad-smiley-002.gif
have fun gaining mass and turning into a black hole! tongue.gif
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post #116 of 149
8/31/12 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thepoopscooper View Post

have fun gaining mass and turning into a black hole! tongue.gif

Who wouldn't want to be a black hole? You can crush all of the people you love into a singularity and be happy forever biggrin.gif
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post #117 of 149
8/31/12 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyrical View Post

How many people who read that article ran "test for themselves" and confirm that it is true?
Sorry to bring it to you, but many things in science are beliefs to most people. It's simple, you read an article about something like this, and you believe it. I'm not saying these things don't exist or that it's not true, but I'm pointing out that most reader's read this and believe it is true. You trust the article and those scientists.
Let's be honest here and speak reality, you read that article, and you believe what it told you.
To the average person, there's some things in science that is not as simple as walking outside and confirming that the moon exists. Many other things in science are beliefs to us, whether you disagree or not, my point is TRUE.

Nope. Still not TRUE. Science is not, and will never be a belief system. It's either true or false, no belief or faith involved. A bunch of math (espectially when in physics) confirms or rejects hypothesis's.

I'd trust a bunch of "scientists" over a bunch of laymen with their "beliefs" anyday.

THIS is the problem with the US education system today. This is why our "knowledge quota" is going down the crapper.

Do you even understand how these things are tested by many and peer-reviewed for accuracy?

idontwanttoliveonthisplanetanymore.jpg
Quote:
Science:
1.
a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2.
systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3.
any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4.
systematized knowledge in general.
5.
knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.

Notice the term systematic?

You still don't get my point. Take your own advice and "think outside the box." Reread what I said, I said to the average people that read that article, it is a belief for them. The only reason why they think it is true is because they trust the source. Like you said, "I'd trust a bunch of "scientists" over a bunch of laymen with their "beliefs" anyday." So basically you're saying that you believe what the scientist is telling you, but to you it is not a belief, it is a fact. The reality is, you believe what they told you; therefore, it is a belief.

Also, please stop stating the obvious, we know that science goes by fact and not a belief system. My point is that the the average audience, they sometimes believe what scientists tells them. Take this article for example. If you can't understand that, but instead going to jump on the whole "science is not a belief system" boat, then you're really closed minded.
Edited by Psyrical - 8/31/12 at 5:49pm
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post #118 of 149
9/1/12 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyrical View Post

You still don't get my point. Take your own advice and "think outside the box." Reread what I said, I said to the average people that read that article, it is a belief for them. The only reason why they think it is true is because they trust the source. Like you said, "I'd trust a bunch of "scientists" over a bunch of laymen with their "beliefs" anyday." So basically you're saying that you believe what the scientist is telling you, but to you it is not a belief, it is a fact. The reality is, you believe what they told you; therefore, it is a belief.
Also, please stop stating the obvious, we know that science goes by fact and not a belief system. My point is that the the average audience, they sometimes believe what scientists tells them. Take this article for example. If you can't understand that, but instead going to jump on the whole "science is not a belief system" boat, then you're really closed minded.

I get your point. The "average person" will never learn quantum dynamics or general relativity, that's certainly true. Heck, this thread has shown that "most people", even most intelligent people currently don't understand special relativity, which is considerably simpler, at even a basic level. People simply parrot what they've been told. However, your error is in assuming that everyone here is part of "most people." I have personally derived the speed of light as part of an experiment in a graduate course. For me, relativity is not just what some scientist told me because I have confirmed it with my own hands.

Also, there are certainly people here with incredible mathematical and analytical abilities. It's easily possible to follow historical science, derive SR from basic principles, and follow the early evidence and experiments that logically pointed towards the conclusion that we know today. SR isn't esoteric and there are no secrets about it. If you cared to, any person with above average intelligence and interest can follow the trail of logic and experimental evidence - let me just spoil the ending for you, the conclusion is rock solid. There are certainly lots of places in science that you could argue are squishy or biased, but SR is not it.
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post #119 of 149
9/1/12 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post

The "time runs backwards when you move faster than C" is absolutely pure theory with zero proof, a theory based on the logic that if time slows down to a stop at C then faster than C must make it go backwards. But that's all there is to the theory, it's nothing more than hot air because general relativity doesn't allow for ANYTHING with mass to travel at the speed of light (because it would take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate said object to C), therefore traveling backwards through time is impossible if we are to go according to Einstein's rules.
First of all, I don't think you know what "theory" means.

And the reasons you state for their theoretical existence are not even close. The theoretical basis is that particles that "move backwards through time" is a mathematical result of SR. By that I mean that the math allows it. The math DOESN'T allow particles to move at exactly C, but any other value produces predictive values. Read up on tachyons. An interesting point is that tachyons cannot travel slower than the speed of light, for exactly the same reason we can't travel faster - crossing the speed of light barrier would require infinite energy. There's a mathematical singularity exactly at C. And so because they always travel at greater than C, it's possible that they exist but don't interact properly with normal matter making them hard to detect.

Of course we know that SR isn't exactly correct, it's an approximation just like newton, and so these ideas are most likely mathematical artifacts. However, it certainly isn't proven that tachyons don't or can't exist and that time travel is or isn't impossible.
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post #120 of 149
9/1/12 at 10:28am
I think that because we as humans live in a world where 'time' seems to exist (i.e. everything has a beginning and an end, temporally-speaking) and everything we know of has some measurable 'volume' (i.e. nothing is 'infinite' in size) ... it's very difficult for us as humans to comprehend what I believe to be the true nature of the universe.

To whit: it has simply ALWAYS 'been' (although it's constantly changing), and it has no 'outer boundary', i.e. it is essentially infinite in nature. Put another way, there has never been 'a time' when the universe didn't exist, and there is no 'place' ... that was or is 'outside' the universe.

Like I say, it's tough for us humans to wrap our head around these ideas, but that's because they're utterly foreign and fantastical to us ... nothing in OUR world or our lives is infinite. Therefore, the idea that ANYTHING (including the universe itself) possesses these qualities seems impossible and wrong.

Once you DO wrap your head around it, though ... it's quite enlightening wink.gif
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