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[VC] NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780 Will Utilize GK110 GPU - Page 54

post #531 of 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowyn View Post

Before talking about math, try doing it.
Now i don't say that 780 will be GK110 or how fast it will be, but let's assume it is then:
1. 2496 CUDA Cores out of 2880 (13 SMX enabled out of 15) which is 2496 - 1536 = 960 / 62.5% extra cores
2. 384-bit bus which is 50% wider
3. extra ROPs, not sure how many
Then let's count theoretical core performance, even at 700 MHz clock 2496 * 700 is 52% higher than running 1586 * 1000 MHz, but it is likely to have higher clock as Geforce variant always does compared to Tesla counterpart. Wider memory bus alone will grant some nice gains in high resolution scenario. Then it is obviously gonna be tweaked architecture, ~5% or so IPC increase is a safe bet as well as addressing certain bottlenecks.
So in all honesty they can easily do it, will they? That depends on their strategy and how economically viable it will be.
The GTX 680 is mostly ROP-limited, which explains why the GTX 670 is basically equal in clock for clock scenarios. ROP count always follow memory bus width, GK110 has 48 ROPs.

Your math is off by the way: 2496 shaders / 1536 shaders * 700 MHz / 1000 MHz = 1.1375 = 114% shader (and texturing) performance. ROP performance with all the 48 ROPs at 700MHz would equal the GTX 680. Basically, a GK110 clocked at 700MHz with 48 ROPs / 384-bit memory bus and 13 SMXes enabled (which would still be a more functional chip than the 320-bit Tesla) would marginally beat the GTX 680 while increasing power consumption by at least 50W, such a card would be slaughtered by reviewers.

Geforce cards have always had higher clocks, yes, but that increases power consumption as well. Let's say they increase the power limit by 33% compared to the K20 (300W TDP) while not enabling any more units on the die:
A 33% increase in power budget would result in roughly 20% higher clocks, thus 850MHz core and these results (compared to the 680):
38% more shading and texturing performance
6% more ROP performance
25% more memory bandwidth
This would be even more of a disaster in gaming than a card with the full 384-bit memory bus and 48 ROPs at 700MHz: double the power consumption of the 680 and marginally better performance?

We can conclude that for a GK110-based Geforce to net a reasonable increase in gaming performance over the GTX 680, Nvidia will have to:
  1. Enable all the 48 ROPs
  2. Clock the chip at 800MHz or higher
The problem is that they can't justify a 15-20% performance increase if the power consumption rises by 50%, thus leading me to believe Nvidia has another chip in the pipeline for the GTX 780.
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post #532 of 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilOC View Post

An unnamed source posted, and not even directly quoted, on a single tech blog directly contradicting an NVidia spokesperson and their press release? Incredibly reliable.

And before you say it was posted on multiple tech blogs, IIRC it originated from bit-tech, and all other blogs have just drawn their articles on the issue from that one source.

The industry is bred on rumours, anyone who has been in it for an extended period of time knows this (Remember Fermi? nVidia was trying to convince us that it was Gods own chip and was going to be released in December...Until Charlie came out with unnamed sources, told us March and that it was a leaky chip..which was right)...And how else do you explain MSI and eVGA removing support from their ultra high-end cards completely randomly but at the same time? They could easily offer OV on those cards above nVidia's limits and say no warranty, nVidia could easily put a fuse on the reference design that blows if you OV it too high, so warranties aren't really an excuse either...Especially considering the GTX 6*0 series is slower than the HD79*0s.

There is no defense at all for this, you're effectively bending over and taking it proudly; nVidia is offering you a slower product at the same cost and pretending all is rosy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilOC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

Have you not read the quote?
If a "named source" spoke out, Nividia would outright cut-off their supply of Kepler chips, so ofc all you get is unnamed sources.
plus I never said GTX 680 was bad at stock volts(although 7950/7970/670 smashes it in price/performance), just that for a $500 Flagship card it had limited OC headroom due to voltage locks.

My point is that absolutely nothing is known about the source of that quote. We don't know if it's middle-management, a factory worker or the CEO. There's no information to rule out bias from the source either. And there is nothing else to substantiate the claim, if the source had slipped in some other inside insight into NV's inner-workings, then maybe it would be a little more credible. But as it stands, it's entirely possible it's either fabricated, or based on office rumours that may be flying around one of NV's partners.

I will agree that it has limited OC headroom though, it looks like that's as a result of GPU boost and will continue so long as NV use the technology.

We also know absolutely nothing about the source of any other quote when it comes down to it, has nVidia really limited them to a max safe voltage? They could probably go higher and still have 24/7 safety if they wanted but chose not to for whatever reason.
It also adequately explains why eVGA and MSI both stopped OV support at the same time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Vanelay View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by supergamer View Post

Sounds like GK110 is achieving way below of its expected performance. So underwhelming that NV is trying every trick in their bag to put a cap on Gk104's performance.
Guess that GK110-780 being only 15% better than 680 rumor is true after all. tongue.gif
Unbelievably only few months back ppl though it's gonna be a 15SMX monster with performance rivaling 680SLI. LoL biggrin.gif
There are actually several explanations for this that I see:
1. If you overvolt the lower cards this generation enough, like the 670, they will reach 680 level performance, and no one will buy the higher end cards (this doesn't explain the lack of 680 overvolting)
2. Nvidia thought that the performance this generation only needed to be up to par with the 7970 and the next gen would blow everyone away even more because of the performance cap.
3. The next gen has poor performance (if this were the case, the AMD 8000 series would blow them away, so it wouldn't matter)
4. Nvidia really is worried about the number of people RMAing cards that they have flashed the BIOS on and volted to death
5. nVidia wanted to save on board costs and is starting to move to cheaper VRMs, remember when some 570s/590s exploded due to not having good enough VRMs either through bad batches or simply not having enough for the design?

It's probably a combination of them, anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowyn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arni90 View Post

Let me state it more clearly: Tesla-cards have always had more GFLOPS/watt than Geforce cards.
If the GK110-based Geforce-card is supposed to beat the GTX 680 by 35%, based on the performance/watt of the K20, it will have to have a TDP in the 300-350W range, that is simply unacceptable and won't happen. Thus we won't get a 35% boost in performance from the GK110, it's simple math.
It doesn't matter if the Tesla parts have less functional units, the K20 is definitely limited by it's power budget at just 705MHz and 225W. How much will power have to increase for 20% higher clocks? 30%?

Before talking about math, try doing it.

Now i don't say that 780 will be GK110 or how fast it will be, but let's assume it is then:
1. 2496 CUDA Cores out of 2880 (13 SMX enabled out of 15) which is 2496 - 1536 = 960 / 62.5% extra cores
2. 384-bit bus which is 50% wider
3. extra ROPs, not sure how many

Then let's count theoretical core performance, even at 700 MHz clock 2496 * 700 is 52% higher than running 1586 * 1000 MHz, but it is likely to have higher clock as Geforce variant always does compared to Tesla counterpart. Wider memory bus alone will grant some nice gains in high resolution scenario. Then it is obviously gonna be tweaked architecture, ~5% or so IPC increase is a safe bet as well as addressing certain bottlenecks.

So in all honesty they can easily do it, will they? That depends on their strategy and how economically viable it will be.

..If it's GK110, it's GK110, not tweaked at all; the drivers will be more gaming orientated though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G woodlogger View Post

There really isn't any rule abut how many power connectors they can use.
And  add a water cooler:devil: .  

Actually, to stay in the PCIe spec (Important for OEM machines) they have to stay below 300w-350w iirc, max of two power connectors. If you see a card that has more than 2 or uses like 400w then it's out of PCIe spec iirc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arni90 View Post

The problem is that they can't justify a 15-20% performance increase if the power consumption rises by 50%, thus leading me to believe Nvidia has another chip in the pipeline for the GTX 780.

The alternative is that the ROPs in GK110 are also faster clock for clock than the ones in GK104, I still think the GTX 780 will be GK114 with there being a future GK110 based product once nVidia works their yields out.
    
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post #533 of 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

5. nVidia wanted to save on board costs and is starting to move to cheaper VRMs, remember when some 570s/590s exploded due to not having good enough VRMs either through bad batches or simply not having enough for the design?
That defeats the whole point of making special boards for overclocking. The EVGA classified still has something like a 14 phase PWM, despite not allowing overclocking.
post #534 of 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

From TPU:
Another source on the same quote:
That's a different quote, and it doesn't mention non-compliance with a single GPU effecting component allocation. In fact those links even include the parts of the NV PR statement (in bold, I might add) where they say it doesn't effect allocation.
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post #535 of 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

The industry is bred on rumours, anyone who has been in it for an extended period of time knows this (Remember Fermi? nVidia was trying to convince us that it was Gods own chip and was going to be released in December...Until Charlie came out with unnamed sources, told us March and that it was a leaky chip..which was right)...And how else do you explain MSI and eVGA removing support from their ultra high-end cards completely randomly but at the same time? They could easily offer OV on those cards above nVidia's limits and say no warranty, nVidia could easily put a fuse on the reference design that blows if you OV it too high, so warranties aren't really an excuse either...Especially considering the GTX 6*0 series is slower than the HD79*0s.
No, no they couldn't. Most countries have legal requirements of quality that need to be met, they could not sell high volumes of chips with high fail rates and just say "oh well, we did say no warranty". I daresay the forum responses alone when all the chips fail would probably be enough to bury a couple of the manufacturers (or NVidia for that point, most consumers can't really tell the difference).

I do agree they could probably have an on-board device to record whether or not the max voltage has been exceeded though, but it does of course beg the question what happens when your board dies because of faulty VRMs or some such tongue.gif And I still wouldn't expect them to integrate such devices into a family of cards that was in the middle of it's release cycle when they had to implement the green-light changes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

There is no defense at all for this, you're effectively bending over and taking it proudly; nVidia is offering you a slower product at the same cost and pretending all is rosy.
Then buy an ATI card? No one is forcing you to buy an NV card, and I've already said in this thread if you wish to slate the NV cards for running too close to their max voltage at stock (Or for being slow at stock), then that's perfectly justified. But you cannot honestly attack a company with such vehemence sheerly for trying to avoid what I would guess have been pretty high RMA rates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

We also know absolutely nothing about the source of any other quote when it comes down to it, has nVidia really limited them to a max safe voltage? They could probably go higher and still have 24/7 safety if they wanted but chose not to for whatever reason.
It also adequately explains why eVGA and MSI both stopped OV support at the same time.
Nvidia have no real reason to artificially slow down their top-end cards, unless they are avoiding large numbers of RMAs and card failures. Suggesting they just leave the voltages really low for "whatever reason" is a little silly. I could understand if they had a massive lead on ATI, but they don't, so I can't really see a reason they'd hold back.

And of course they all stopped at the same time, I'm not denying that NV changed their policy nor that they spoke to their board partners, but it seems to me like they identified an issue and acted on it. A lot of people around here seem to constantly act like NV are intentionally sabotaging their own products and screwing their largest clients about. Which just doesn't make sense.
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post #536 of 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

There is no defense at all for this, you're effectively bending over and taking it proudly; nVidia is offering you a slower product at the same cost and pretending all is rosy.
.
They are very rosy indeed. thumb.gif

Isn't this thread supposed to be about the new GTX 780, not people bashing Nvidias GPU's?
The GTX cost more because of its quality, features and driver suite.
As far as the new GTX 780, let is be a rebirth of the GTX 280 with a 512bit bus again, only with 4GB frame buffer. devil.gif
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post #537 of 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by amstech View Post

They are very rosy indeed. thumb.gif
Isn't this thread supposed to be about the new GTX 780, not people bashing Nvidias GPU's?
The GTX cost more because of its quality, features and driver suite.
:

Quality lol they use crappy components compared to amd so no. features? physx? lol my amd system can do it. Drivers? those days are past amd is not blasted for drivers anymore NV is on that end. amd releases drivers that give 25% better performance while NV does nothing
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post #538 of 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by onthemour View Post

Quality lol they use crappy components compared to amd so no. features? physx? lol my amd system can do it. Drivers? those days are past amd is not blasted for drivers anymore NV is on that end. amd releases drivers that give 25% better performance while NV does nothing

nVidia has better release drivers and currently a better product in performance per watt. Overall though, I see AMD as having the better bang for your buck, which is why I plan on getting 1-2 7950 over the next 3 months or so. nVidia is great and all, but AMD caught up and is holding their own quite well.
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post #539 of 556
Better release drivers don't mean squat if you release your competing product months and months after the competition. I am no fanboi but I have to say amd is ahead of NV now better cards better performance better price. NV advantage used to be performance and drivers but amd fixed that driver crap and have more powerful cards due to drivers. They used to release driver after driver betas and unofficials then ppl modded them and so many inexperienced users would screw up their comps with them. Not anyone. Amd is ahead now. I can play bf3 ultra at 60 FPS on a single oced 7970 3 screens...

...and if NV has locked volts again I won't touch them
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post #540 of 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by onthemour View Post

Quality lol they use crappy components compared to amd so no. features? physx? lol my amd system can do it. Drivers? those days are past amd is not blasted for drivers anymore NV is on that end. amd releases drivers that give 25% better performance while NV does nothing

ATI cards can't do PhysX, it was 10% not 25%, and NV has better support. Also both use similar components IIRC, and even if they don't you can't even validate anything you mentioned so far because as we already established you have no clue what you're talking about.

ATI however does have better control interface, multicsreen support, and less heat/TDP.

Just sayin bros. Got both parties here smile.gif
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
AMD FX 8350 Asus Sabretooth 990FX AMD Radeon 7950 Windforce AMD Radeon 7950 Windforce 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
4x 4gb Corsair Veangance DDR3 2x Seagate 1tb 2x M4 Crucial 64gb Raid 0 on 6gbs 2x LG Supermulti 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Corsair H100 Liquid Cooling 6x Enermax 120mm Blue LED 4x BitFenix Spectre Pros 120mm Blue LED (courte... 2x Antec Tricools 120mm Blue LED 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
2x Scythe Slipstream Slim 120mm 6x ACE High Performance 40mm Blue LED (Emergency Overheat System) 2x stock Corsair H1... Windows 7 64 Bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
3x 19" 1x17" (Games at 4010x1024) Razer Blackwidow Ultimate Corsair Enthusiast 750w TX Lanboy Air Blue (Maxed Fans) 
MouseMouse PadOtherOther
Razer Naga Razer Vespula 6 CCFLs from ELWirePros.com 60ft EL Wire from ELWirePros.com 
OtherOtherOtherOther
Custom LED Feet from PerformancePCs.com LED Toggle Switches from PerformancePCs.com Custom Built "Rig-nition" courtesy of Digkey 3d Printed Sideplates courtesy of Governor Simcoe 
Other
BitFenix Recon 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
965 BE Asus M4N98TD Evo 9500GT 9500GT 
GraphicsRAMHard DriveCooling
5x IO Gear USB-VGA Kingston HyperX WD Blue 500GB Corsair Air Series Quiet Edition 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows XP (up to) 9x LCD Projectors Generic ToPower 500 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Corsair C70 Green Generic Table Creative Sound Blaster Recon Fatality Professional 
OtherOther
APC 40 APC 20 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
I7 3770k Gigabyte Z77MITX MSI 7990 Malta "Lightning" Corsair Vengeance 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingOS
WD Green 4x Spectre Pro 120mm Black H100I Windows 7 Ultimate 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
HP 22bw IPS Logitech G510 Corsair CX750 BitFenix Prodigy 
MouseMouse PadAudio
Logitech G700 Ikea Cutting Board Varied 
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L.E.G.I.O.N.
(29 items)
 
S.A.M.P.S.O.N.
(18 items)
 
M.I.C.H.E.L.L.E.
(15 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
AMD FX 8350 Asus Sabretooth 990FX AMD Radeon 7950 Windforce AMD Radeon 7950 Windforce 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
4x 4gb Corsair Veangance DDR3 2x Seagate 1tb 2x M4 Crucial 64gb Raid 0 on 6gbs 2x LG Supermulti 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Corsair H100 Liquid Cooling 6x Enermax 120mm Blue LED 4x BitFenix Spectre Pros 120mm Blue LED (courte... 2x Antec Tricools 120mm Blue LED 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
2x Scythe Slipstream Slim 120mm 6x ACE High Performance 40mm Blue LED (Emergency Overheat System) 2x stock Corsair H1... Windows 7 64 Bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
3x 19" 1x17" (Games at 4010x1024) Razer Blackwidow Ultimate Corsair Enthusiast 750w TX Lanboy Air Blue (Maxed Fans) 
MouseMouse PadOtherOther
Razer Naga Razer Vespula 6 CCFLs from ELWirePros.com 60ft EL Wire from ELWirePros.com 
OtherOtherOtherOther
Custom LED Feet from PerformancePCs.com LED Toggle Switches from PerformancePCs.com Custom Built "Rig-nition" courtesy of Digkey 3d Printed Sideplates courtesy of Governor Simcoe 
Other
BitFenix Recon 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
965 BE Asus M4N98TD Evo 9500GT 9500GT 
GraphicsRAMHard DriveCooling
5x IO Gear USB-VGA Kingston HyperX WD Blue 500GB Corsair Air Series Quiet Edition 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows XP (up to) 9x LCD Projectors Generic ToPower 500 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Corsair C70 Green Generic Table Creative Sound Blaster Recon Fatality Professional 
OtherOther
APC 40 APC 20 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
I7 3770k Gigabyte Z77MITX MSI 7990 Malta "Lightning" Corsair Vengeance 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingOS
WD Green 4x Spectre Pro 120mm Black H100I Windows 7 Ultimate 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
HP 22bw IPS Logitech G510 Corsair CX750 BitFenix Prodigy 
MouseMouse PadAudio
Logitech G700 Ikea Cutting Board Varied 
  hide details  
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