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[Official] uSFF/SFF Club - Page 198

post #1971 of 2831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbags View Post

cant take an NH-L9i??? Wow theyre only 37mm with the fan. That must be a real tight fit! Its even shorter than a stock intel cooler.

Yeah, there's not a lot of room to work with. I think it was about 40mm vertically, but that was from the motherboard to the roof of the case, not the CPU IHS and the 10mm-thick fans!

In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't decide to do something stupid like I wanted (thin mITX + PCIe graphics, or worse, watercooled) after all. If I had tools and more components like mSATA... Well, I still do want to try that, but maybe in a larger case. A 4L case would still be tiny but would offer >50% more room to work in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Leopold- View Post

@CynicalUnicorn - if possible, i want to save that 50€ / ~55$. Maaaybe i can overclock my RipJawsX from 1.600MHz to 2.133MHz, that's the Maximum Speed that the RAM Supports. I think i can quite easy remove the Heat Spreaders with the Hairdryer of my Wife if necessary biggrin.gif.

No need to @mention me, I am subscribed. wink.gif

I didn't even need a hair dryer. There's two metal tabs on top of the heatspreaders that you can snap with a bit of leverage with a screwdriver. I did use the most helpful Lego part ever: the new-ish brick separator! Why use this? Because it's ABS plastic. I'd prefer not to scratch up a PCB with a metal screwdriver. More generally, it's a device called a spudger. Flathead screwdrivers are convenient, but they can damage circuit boards and plastic shells/cases.

That said, I did bend the PCB a bit more than I'd like (in other words, at all) when removing it that way, without heat. They still fit in the slots just fine though, but they needed a bit of coaxing to fit in. Some pretty stiff adhesive pads. :/ A bit of a pain. The ones I got were single-ranked as well. I'm not totally clear on what that means in terms of performance, but I do know what it means in terms of layout: there were only eight 4Gb memory chips in total (for 32Gb = 4GB per DIMM) and only on a single side of the PCB.

I find it likely but not guaranteed that ours would use the same memory chips (or mine is an updated version since I bought it more recently) as well, though my 2400MT/s kit is probably binned a bit better than your 1600MT/s kit. Don't worry about power consumption, even with the 150W PSU. RAM uses up like 4W per module, and that's assuming you have 1.8V DDR3-3200 or something crazy. No way a standard frequency will suck up that much energy.
Edited by CynicalUnicorn - 10/19/15 at 7:50pm
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post #1972 of 2831
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Yeah, there's not a lot of room to work with. I think it was about 40mm vertically, but that was from the motherboard to the roof of the case, not the CPU IHS and the 10mm-thick fans!
37mm for the noctua is including the fan. Its crazy dense, just feels awesome to hold haha. Prob still to big right? My just fit. It doesnt overhang the ram or pcie slots on mitx boards either smile.gif Sorry for rambling. I fell a little in love with this little cooler biggrin.gif
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post #1973 of 2831
So I just replaced my Gentle Typhoon AP-14 120mm fan with a Noctua NF-p14r 140mm fan (120mm holes), and my GPU temps have dropped by about six degrees Celsius while playing the Witcher 3. This is probably due to the Gentle Typhoon creating more of a narrow wind tunnel effect that is more focused at the center of the impeller whereas the Noctua fan spreads the airflow outwards and covers a much wider range, which ultimately makes direct contact onto my GPU and directly onto my CPU cooler (something that the gentle typhoon couldn't manage to do due to its smaller size and narrow wind tunnel).

This is using the Silverstone SG05.

Just thought it was interesting that one fan could make that much of a difference.
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post #1974 of 2831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbags View Post

37mm for the noctua is including the fan. Its crazy dense, just feels awesome to hold haha. Prob still to big right? My just fit. It doesnt overhang the ram or pcie slots on mitx boards either smile.gif Sorry for rambling. I fell a little in love with this little cooler biggrin.gif

Oh, trust me, I looked at it. I got really close to buying it. But I got some rough measurements and realized I'd be sacrificing a ton of cooling elsewhere. I've got four 40mm fans in there now. With the Noctua cooler, there would be just one since the drive brackets would be unusable with anything larger than a 5mm drive (those things exist, by the way - WD released a single-platter HDD and Seagate released a couple SSDs). Heatsinkless RAM and heatsinkless VRMs would have minimal airflow too. Additionally I'd have needed to sacrifice to on-board PCIe WiFi to grab an mSATA SSD instead (also driving up the cost since I had a 120GB Samsung 840, ready to be sliced in half, on hand).

Also it was like $30 more than the Evercool. biggrin.gif
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post #1975 of 2831
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Oh, trust me, I looked at it. I got really close to buying it. But I got some rough measurements and realized I'd be sacrificing a ton of cooling elsewhere. I've got four 40mm fans in there now. With the Noctua cooler, there would be just one since the drive brackets would be unusable with anything larger than a 5mm drive (those things exist, by the way - WD released a single-platter HDD and Seagate released a couple SSDs). Heatsinkless RAM and heatsinkless VRMs would have minimal airflow too. Additionally I'd have needed to sacrifice to on-board PCIe WiFi to grab an mSATA SSD instead (also driving up the cost since I had a 120GB Samsung 840, ready to be sliced in half, on hand).

Also it was like $30 more than the Evercool. biggrin.gif
Pics of this rig your building? And the cpu cooler?Youve got me curious now biggrin.gif
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post #1976 of 2831
The funny thing is that the NH-L9i is designed to be about as tall as the top tab of the Motherboard I/O shield when mounted on the IHS, so it would normally fit in every case (apart from thin mITX ones, of course). But as the M350 is just a little bit higher, you can't fit anything on the drive brackets if you were to do that.
post #1977 of 2831
Quote:
Originally Posted by jivenjune View Post


where did you buy cables psu?
post #1978 of 2831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbags View Post

Pics of this rig your building? And the cpu cooler?Youve got me curious now biggrin.gif

I had most of the build in this thread. Somewhere. tongue.gif

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Okay, I'm back. I poked around in BIOS, found some nifty settings, and then shut down. Build isn't quite complete, but eh, it's close enough for pictures. The meat is all there. So here goes:

Warning: Picture spam! (Click to show)


Box unpacked. The beginning of something amazing. Parts are in my sig. Links for the PSU and cooler are here and here. I've actually had the PSU and case for over a year at this point and am only now actually putting them to use in a build, lol.




First up is the motherboard. Box came with fun stuff like a driver CD, SATA cable, blah blah blah who cares? I didn't even check the manual until I tried to find which USB header had the lower-value ports. Why? I dunno. It seems weird to leave ports 4 and 5 unused but plug something into ports 6 and 7. BIOS is your typical ASRock AMD BIOS. It's just like the Extreme4 990FX BIOS, except this time the background is animated for no reason. In terms of the UI itself it's very similar to my Intel board as well, but with different graphics.




Oh, right, PGA CPUs. Been a while since I've seen one of these! wheee.gif LGA is much better though. Did you know that AMD's server sockets, G34 and C32, use an LGA system rather than PGA? Only their socketed consumer chips still use PGA sockets. Intel had the right idea to ditch them after Socket 478, really.

Pretty basic APU. Full Kaveri die, 4GHz CPU and 800MHz GPU +/-. However, this one is Godavari, or Kaveri refresh, not the OG Kaveri from 2014. I believe they fixed the throttle bug where it would downclock to 3GHz whenever the GPU was touched, and the IHS is soldered here. That's good for overclockers who need the system to stay cool, but also for me. Silicon loses efficiency the hotter it gets, meaning it pulls more power from the PSU. I'm limited to a sustained 80W, so saving every single watt is fairly important. If the solder can keep it a few degrees cooler, then that might mean an SSD or a fan worth of power saved.







Now, in order to cool the beast, we'll need a fan. The stock heatsink that comes with 95W Godavari is pretty good. It's the same thing that comes with high-end 125W FX - copper base, heatpipes, the works. Problem: it will not fit in the M350 alongside a drive or fans. It is simply too tall. Actually, it might not even fit at all. I never bothered checking the clearance. Enter the Evercool EC-HPS-810CP. This thing is tiny, and more importantly, very short. It's about as tall as the rear I/O and a standard DDR3 circuit board. Noise? Uh... It's a bit loud. However, I plan on downclocking the CPU a bit and overclocking the GPU. My logic is that, since I lived with a 2.4GHz dual-core, later 2.1GHz tri-core, K10 laptop, I don't need a particularly fast CPU. It was the godawful integrated 4250 that killed it. 40 shader cores. An A8-3850, the flagship Llano APU, would have been ten times faster per cycle. eek.gif So I have high hopes for Kaveri, lol.




Normally, I don't care about system memory at all past the capacity. I simply buy enough to populate the channels and reach/exceed my desired amount and call it a day. There are two exceptions. First is when the memory is far too slow for 2015. This means stuff like DDR3-1333 or, God forbid, 1066. My dual-channel DDR3-1600 is fine on my desktop though. 25.6GB/s theoretical speeds are acceptable for my uses.

The other scenario where I care is for APUs. So what better choice than the fastest stuff this little guy supports? Dual-channel DDR3-2400 should net 38.4GB/s bandwidth in theory. Realistically it will be a lot less though. Turns out this RAM is single ranked, meaning the IMC won't alternate refreshing the memory. An entire channel is useless for a short time when that operation occurs. Dual-ranked RAM would allow half the chips on a module to refresh while the other half can still perform memory operations. I'm not sure how big an impact that is, but it's there.

I'll run Memtest and see how it does. I expect ~30GB/s when the GPU is mostly untouched. When gaming though, the poor thing will be pretty starved bandwidth-wise, but that's just an inherent issue with integrated graphics. Intel solved it with their Crystalwell eDRAM cache, and AMD will solve it in the future with HBM.




This was a super easy build. There were like five cables to mess with. That said, it isn't quite complete and there are still some things to do. My tools are just 100 miles away. frown.gif I'll be home next week so I can probably do something about that.




This was when I was poking at the BIOS to see what happens. Pro-tip, with this case, I highly recommend both drive/fan brackets. It costs like $5 extra and seems to provide some stability internally.

There is a problem with those brackets though. You need a slim CPU cooler (check!) but also short RAM (uh-oh!) in order to install anything. My needs are pretty simple - 10mm of clearance over the memory - but man, G.Skill made some stupid, overly fancy heatspreaders. So what do we do?




Yup. That's right! wheee.gif Fortunately, DDR3 runs fairly cool, even the higher-voltage (1.675V) and higher clocked (1200MHz) versions. This is especially true when compared to overclocked DDR2, running at under 600MHz but requiring 2.3V to reach it. With a fan or two blowing over the modules, they should stay reasonably chill. Additionally, the heatspreaders add some bulk. With them gone, there's now a "channel" down the middle for some airflow.

Pretty easy mod, but be careful. I ended up bending the PCBs. It shouldn't be permanent though, and they're sitting nicely in the slots, but it's not a goal to set for yourself. The backs of the PCBs are completely bare, which I found interesting. Not a single SMD component to be found, let alone memory chips. But it was stuck pretty tight. As always, Lego brick separators do a good job without scratching anything. They're made of ABS plastic rather than something like the steel used in flathead screwdrivers.










PS4 controller and SSD for scale. It's pretty small.

So what's left? The priority is a power brick that doesn't suck. Fun fact about buck converters (DC-DC converters that take high voltage and "buck" it to a lower voltage) like the PicoPSU I'm using. They have a minimum voltage drop. Here it looks to be about 1V. The power brick is spitting out 12.3V, which is out of ATX specs. So what does the PSU do? Drops it down further. But the problem comes when you're only getting 11.3V on the 12V rail! That's normally a sign of a terrible quality PSU, but not here; the 3.3V rail is 3.296V and the 5V rail 5.064V when I check. So by getting a higher voltage power brick, I should see the 12V rail much closer to its target. I'm feeling 19V @ 6.3A, matching the peak power output of the PSU.

Also, I need some fans. The chipset has a tiny heatsink that heats up rapidly, the VRMs have absolutely nothing to help out heat transfer, and the RAM is now naked. There's two mounting spaces on each drive bracket, and there's one in the front of the case opposite the power button, so I could use 5 in theory, minus the space reserved for an SSD. Sadly, using a single 2.5" drive in either bracket blocks any fans from being installed.

Or does it?




That's the guts of a Samsung 840 EVO. The bottom one is the 120GB version. I can confirm that my vanilla 840 is also this same size, perhaps even using an identical PCB! So by cutting the drive case itself in half, it should be possible to have 4 of the 5 fans in use, only sacrificing one for an SSD instead of two.

That's right, we're using nested spoilers for that. thumb.gif At this point, I have a 19V power brick, I have the cut-down SSD installed, and I have the additional fans installed. Only problem is that it's a friggin' jet engine when powered on, so I need to move those over to 5V rather than 12V. Once that's done I can't think of much else the build could need.
Edited by CynicalUnicorn - 10/20/15 at 6:36am
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For Sale: [FS] Z97 system: Xeon and RAM
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Triumvirate
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For Sale: [FS] Z97 system: Xeon and RAM
$160 (USD) or best offer
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7-5775C ASUS Sabertooth Z97 Mark 2 Sapphire RX 480 (reference) MSI Low-Profile 750Ti 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Corsair Dominator Platinum - 2x8GB Crucial M500 - 960GB Samsung 840 - 250GB WD Scorpio Blue - 1TB 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingOS
ADATA SP900 - 64GB Scythe BIG Shuriken 2 Rev. B PNY Quadro 600 blower Windows 10 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
ASUS VE247H - 1080p Gateway FPD1960 - 1280x1024 Samsung S20D300 - 900p, portrait Rosewill RK9000I - Cherry MX Blue 
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Rosewill HIVE 650W Riotoro CR1080 SteelSeries Rival 100 CyberPower 1500PFCLCD 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
AMD A10-7870K ASRock FM2A88X-ITX+ G.Skill Ripjaws X - 2x4GB @ 2400MT/s Samsung 840 120GB 
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Evercool EC-HPS-810CP Windows 7 Pro 64-bit PicoPSU-120-WI-25 Mini-Box M350 
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post #1979 of 2831
It can be very difficult to build no little oven with this extremely small cases, especially with those A-10's. Most of those powerful Small Form Factor/flat CPU Coolers like the RaiJintek Pallas are bigger than the Whole Case - and the Minibox M350 is not available here in germany D':.
    
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AMD Athlon x4 860K, Black Edition ASRock FM2A88X-ITX+ Club 3D Radeon R7 260X royalQueen, 2.048MB GDDR... 2x 4.096MB G.Skill RipJawsX DDR3, 1.600MHz 
Hard DriveCoolingOSPower
1000GB Seagate Desktop HDD EKL Alpenföhn Atlas Windows 7 Professional, 64 Bit be quiet! SFX Power 2, 300W 
Case
Sharkoon Shark Zone C10 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Athlon x4 860K, Black Edition ASRock FM2A88X-ITX+ Club 3D Radeon R7 260X royalQueen, 2.048MB GDDR... 2x 4.096MB G.Skill RipJawsX DDR3, 1.600MHz 
Hard DriveCoolingOSPower
1000GB Seagate Desktop HDD EKL Alpenföhn Atlas Windows 7 Professional, 64 Bit be quiet! SFX Power 2, 300W 
Case
Sharkoon Shark Zone C10 
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Reply
post #1980 of 2831
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Leopold- View Post

and the Minibox M350 is not available here in germany D':.

You just have to know where to look wink.gif
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