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[BGR][AC] Samsung’s plan for revenge: Sue Apple if it dares release an LTE iPhone - Page 38

post #371 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

Generally speaking, no, you cannot just double the price to a thriving new competitor that is trying to license from you. As noted in the part that I bolded, it does not restrict changing rates if there is a considerable difference in volume/reputation of the company seeking the license...

Samsung licensing the technology to Apple for hundreds of millions of iPhones and iPads is nowhere near the quantity of goods that they licensed the same technology to HTC/etc. for. Licensing to Apple involves a higher quantity of products that is possibly tenfold the number of products their other clients' LTE licenses were for. Pretty drastic difference if you ask me.

I'm not sure I agree. It still has to be similar... why should Apple -- who ship say 50 million iPhone 5's -- pay $10 per smartphone when the competition who is only selling 20 million of a single smartphone model pay only $5? I don't see how that's fair, reasonable or non-discriminatory. That would mean Apple would pay $500m, but the competition would only pay $100m. It's still just a smartphone using their technology.
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post #372 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

Generally speaking, no, you cannot just double the price to a thriving new competitor that is trying to license from you. As noted in the part that I bolded, it does not restrict changing rates if there is a considerable difference in volume/reputation of the company seeking the license...

Samsung licensing the technology to Apple for hundreds of millions of iPhones and iPads is nowhere near the quantity of goods that they licensed the same technology to HTC/etc. for. Licensing to Apple involves a higher quantity of products that is possibly tenfold the number of products their other clients' LTE licenses were for. Pretty drastic difference if you ask me.

I'm not sure I agree. It still has to be similar... why should Apple -- who ship say 50 million iPhone 5's -- pay $10 per smartphone when the competition who is only selling 20 million of a single smartphone model pay only $5? I don't see how that's fair, reasonable or non-discriminatory. That would mean Apple would pay $500m, but the competition would only pay $100m. It's still just a smartphone using their technology.

The big difference is those other manufacturers licensed the technology beforehand; before striking profit off of it. Apple didn't, they're only now going to be seeking licensing if they get into a lawsuit. If Samsung's claims that it offered Apple a license at a fair, nondiscriminatory price are true, then they should rightfully be able to demand a higher amount from Apple, as they sold products infringing their technology after refusing licensing and Samsung has incurred damage from losing sales to them over it. Apple claims they refused to pay it because the price was different from what they license it to other manufacturers for, though I don't see how they would even know what everyone else paid. If Apple's story is true (Samsung was being unfair with licensing fee) then Apple will surely win it. If Samsung has some sort of documented proof that they offered Apple reasonable terms no different from what they offered other companies, Samsung has a pretty strong say.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 9/12/12 at 2:08pm
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post #373 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

Generally speaking, no, you cannot just double the price to a thriving new competitor that is trying to license from you. As noted in the part that I bolded, it does not restrict changing rates if there is a considerable difference in volume/reputation of the company seeking the license...
Samsung licensing the technology to Apple for hundreds of millions of iPhones and iPads is nowhere near the quantity of goods that they licensed the same technology to HTC/etc. for. Licensing to Apple involves a higher quantity of products that is possibly tenfold the number of products their other clients' LTE licenses were for. Pretty drastic difference if you ask me.

Apple has a AAA rating and $100B+ in cash while the Taiwanese government is worried about HTC's health and bailout. Creditworthiness won't hold up in court.


This is a IP though..... as volumes go up, prices per unit generally go down.... not vice versa.
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post #374 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

Generally speaking, no, you cannot just double the price to a thriving new competitor that is trying to license from you. As noted in the part that I bolded, it does not restrict changing rates if there is a considerable difference in volume/reputation of the company seeking the license...
Samsung licensing the technology to Apple for hundreds of millions of iPhones and iPads is nowhere near the quantity of goods that they licensed the same technology to HTC/etc. for. Licensing to Apple involves a higher quantity of products that is possibly tenfold the number of products their other clients' LTE licenses were for. Pretty drastic difference if you ask me.

Apple has a AAA rating and $100B+ in cash while the Taiwanese government is worried about HTC's health and bailout. Creditworthiness won't hold up in court.


This is a IP though..... as volumes go up, prices per unit generally go down.... not vice versa.

Wouldn't the fact that Apple refused Samsung's previous licensing offer impact their creditworthiness for the sake of this case? Given the assumption that the offer was totally reasonable within FRAND terms.
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post #375 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

The big difference is those other manufacturers licensed the technology beforehand; before striking profit off of it. Apple didn't, they're only now going to be seeking licensing if they get into a lawsuit. If Samsung's claims that it offered Apple a license at a fair, nondiscriminatory price are true, then they should rightfully be able to demand a higher amount from Apple, as they sold products infringing their technology after refusing licensing and Samsung has incurred damage from losing sales to them over it. Apple claims they refused to pay it because the price was different from what they license it to other manufacturers for, though I don't see how they would even know what everyone else paid. If Apple's story is true (Samsung was being unfair with licensing fee) then Apple will surely win it. If Samsung has some sort of documented proof that they offered Apple reasonable terms no different from what they offered other companies, Samsung has a pretty strong say.
But I still don't see how infringing their patents allows them to license it at a higher rate. At best they get awarded damages. I know Apple said that Motorola Mobility's rate of 2.25% was too high for a FRAND patent and requested to see what they charged other companies, but I don't know about anything involving Samsung that's already taken place about 4G LTE.
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post #376 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

The big difference is those other manufacturers licensed the technology beforehand; before striking profit off of it. Apple didn't, they're only now going to be seeking licensing if they get into a lawsuit. If Samsung's claims that it offered Apple a license at a fair, nondiscriminatory price are true, then they should rightfully be able to demand a higher amount from Apple, as they sold products infringing their technology after refusing licensing and Samsung has incurred damage from losing sales to them over it. Apple claims they refused to pay it because the price was different from what they license it to other manufacturers for, though I don't see how they would even know what everyone else paid. If Apple's story is true (Samsung was being unfair with licensing fee) then Apple will surely win it. If Samsung has some sort of documented proof that they offered Apple reasonable terms no different from what they offered other companies, Samsung has a pretty strong say.
But I still don't see how infringing their patents allows them to license it at a higher rate. At best they get awarded damages. I know Apple said that Motorola Mobility's rate of 2.25% was too high for a FRAND patent and requested to see what they charged other companies, but I don't know about anything involving Samsung that's already taken place about 4G LTE.

The whole issue comes from Apple not wanting to cross-license. They want exclusivity, yet feel it is wrong for others to have it? Samsung and HTC both have standard FRAND licensing rates (I'd hope they can prove that with legitimate documentation of previous licenses). All the other companies just cross-license these patents instead of paying each other big cash royalties. Apple doesn't want to license, but also feel that the standard, (charged the same to everyone) cash royalty rates are too high. So, they refused to license. Whichever way you put it (raising the actual licensing rate versus demanding higher royalties for damages done), it would turn out more expensive than it would have if they had just cross-licensed with Samsung's FRAND rates.
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post #377 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes5 View Post

I know this is OCN.net but the Apple hate goes a little too far.
1) Apple is a US company and Samsung is not. Them winning is good for all US companies as it shows that we are serious about protecting our innovations. You may disagree with the facts but the overarching impact is that innovation will be more secure and that is a good thing as American companies MUST innovate to compete with low-cost competitors overseas. If companies like Samsung think they can simply copy within a few months a product line from an American company, then all US companies are in trouble.
2) Apple products are underpowered for the price. They always have been. Most people will still buy them because Apple products ARE STABLE and EASY TO USE. I have to troubleshoot my PC, android tablet, and Android phone at least a few times a month. Apple devices do not have those kinds of issues for better or worse. For the vast majority of people who use tech casually, the stability and ease of apple products make them superior.
3) I don't see how you can say Apple doesn't innovate. The tablet market is now bigger than the PC market in terms of unit sales. Why is that? Because Steve Jobs saw a niche in the consumption of media and use of the internet that was being unfilled and delivered a compelling device at a good pricepoint. The ipod may have been just another mp3 player but the Iphone and the Ipad were the first "good" devices of their kind.
Don't own Apple products anymore, I am just too much of a power user but I can understand their appeal and their innovative value. I think the main thing to be learned from the patent wars is that our patent system needs a fundamental overhaul to prevent this kind of insane litigousness. A more flexible patent system with regard to fast-moving fields (like cellular tech) would be ideal; something like having a patent last 2-3 years. Enough to pay for innovation and then some while making litigation much less profitable and feasible.

Irony is, Samsung probably employs more people in the USA than Apple redface.gif
post #378 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie2009 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes5 View Post

I know this is OCN.net but the Apple hate goes a little too far.
1) Apple is a US company and Samsung is not. Them winning is good for all US companies as it shows that we are serious about protecting our innovations. You may disagree with the facts but the overarching impact is that innovation will be more secure and that is a good thing as American companies MUST innovate to compete with low-cost competitors overseas. If companies like Samsung think they can simply copy within a few months a product line from an American company, then all US companies are in trouble.
2) Apple products are underpowered for the price. They always have been. Most people will still buy them because Apple products ARE STABLE and EASY TO USE. I have to troubleshoot my PC, android tablet, and Android phone at least a few times a month. Apple devices do not have those kinds of issues for better or worse. For the vast majority of people who use tech casually, the stability and ease of apple products make them superior.
3) I don't see how you can say Apple doesn't innovate. The tablet market is now bigger than the PC market in terms of unit sales. Why is that? Because Steve Jobs saw a niche in the consumption of media and use of the internet that was being unfilled and delivered a compelling device at a good pricepoint. The ipod may have been just another mp3 player but the Iphone and the Ipad were the first "good" devices of their kind.
Don't own Apple products anymore, I am just too much of a power user but I can understand their appeal and their innovative value. I think the main thing to be learned from the patent wars is that our patent system needs a fundamental overhaul to prevent this kind of insane litigousness. A more flexible patent system with regard to fast-moving fields (like cellular tech) would be ideal; something like having a patent last 2-3 years. Enough to pay for innovation and then some while making litigation much less profitable and feasible.

Irony is, Samsung probably employs more people in the USA than Apple redface.gif

I don't know about that. You may be taking it a little too far. Remember Apple has stores all over the US. Apple has ~60,000+ employees, I assume all in the US. Samsung has 344,000 (4 times Apple's employees) but all around the world.
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post #379 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post

I don't know about that. You may be taking it a little too far. Remember Apple has stores all over the US.

I mean real jobs, engineers etc, not store monkeys in Apple.

Anyway I have no evidence, just trying to point out foreign investment is just as important as home grown companies to an economy.
post #380 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by cayennemist View Post

So now that its confirmed that iPhone 5 will have LTE, does that mean its Game time for Samsung? tongue.gif
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/09/what-you-need-to-know-about-apples-new-iphone-5/

Thats what I was wondering. Just heard the iPhone 5 will have LTE. Samsung needs to rail them now. Teach Apple a lesson.
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