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post #151 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

People with this entitled mentality, disgust me.
You paid for a product, agreed with their rules and then broke those rules. You are subject to discipline as is everyone else that broke that rule...And charging back? Really? What are you, 5?
SWTOR didn't go down the toilet, actually...EA is already profiting on the RUMOR the game is going FTP...It's a proven concept that in 2012 FTP > PTP...
Some of you people, genuinely, need some ethical/moral realigning.

Insulting people who would want their money back for being abused by the developers is IMO, quite immature in itself. The "rules" in the game aren't clear cut, the developers are free to make them up as they go along. So far I've heard of two reasons for people getting banned due to "exploitation." One was this one, purchasing items from a vendor in game with one form of currency and selling it for profit in another. The other was Kripp getting banned for showing players a way to make money by buying crafting ingredients, crafting an item and selling off the result. Which, by the way, was a legitimate way of making money in the last MMO I played. Is there anywhere in Anet's rules that states that either of these acts is against the rules? I would tend to doubt they'd consider buying from vendors and selling for profit, or crafting and selling for profit, to be against the rules, so I'm going to guess no (though someone can correct me if I'm wrong). If anyone did this and wasn't profiting that much, I doubt they'd care. So basically, if the ways people find to make money are deemed "too good" by the developers, that is grounds for being banned.

So basically, what we have is a developer who will ban players if they find ways of making money that are too good, using the mechanics the developers themselves set for the players. They also post their "final notice" to their player base on of all places, reddit, and they've even shown that they're willing to post the status of a user's account on reddit. All this, because players found good ways of increasing their pretend money in the game. So when a player who spent real money and gets their game access taken from them for a garbage reason wants their money back? That, I find, is perfectly justified. A gripe involving someone's actual $60 or $80 is far more justified than any of Anet's quibbling about people buying make believe weapons from their vendors at the price they set, at the very least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

I find myself saddened to see in this thread how many people feel that it's their perfect right to profit from exploiting mistakes like this. The truly staggering part is how many simply don't see what they did as wrong.
I'm glad there were bans and am saddened that they didn't hold to their guns and perma ban everyone who exploited this vendor mistake. None of the moral people in these game will miss you exploiting cheaters.

And I find myself baffled at the number of people who think banning players for performing basic acts in an RPG deserve punishment because the developers messed up, especially the ones who think a perma ban would be justified. Like I and many others have said, if players take advantage of something legitimate in game that turns out to be a mistake, the developers should apologize to the players and reverse the damages done the best they can, not punish players for using the mechanics presented to them. I find it a little twisted that you think players who take advantage of these mechanics are immoral, and yet you find nothing immoral about and are actually in favor of the developers running away with their players' $60+ and cancelling their game access in the first week of play permanently due to such a frivolous reason. That, in my book, is bordering on theft.
post #152 of 191
If it had been my choice about what to do with the players who were taking advantage of the situation here is how i would have handled it. 3 choices.

1 We delete your character and you can start over?

2 We put your account on a temporary 1 week ban and strip the item from everyone you sold it to telling them that you did not have the right to sell them an exploited item and anyone who wants their gold back its taken from your account or anyone you transferred the gold to?

3 we give you your money back and suspend your mac address, ip address and email address from participating the the game.?

Here is a quick analogy. You have a buddy that works at the apple store. He calls you said hey man get down to the store there is a code problem and the ipod xxx is selling for 5% of its expected cost. You rush down there lay your money down and clean the store out of the item. The brain dead cashier just rings up the sale. Now you go out to ebay to sell the item. You sell 5 of them right away at a 4x mark up adding your shipping charge that makes you even more profit. Suddenly your ebay sales start to be taken down and apple is reporting each ebay sale as not a fair use sale and you get a legal email from them telling you some legal mumbo jumbo about the sales....

Its apples fault cause your not exploiting the situation. That is what the vendor sold the item for I just thought there must have been a price drop so i bought every one they had. Cause that is exactly the same situation except its a digital vendor with an endless supply of the item. Its an Exploit, Exploit, Exploit, Exploit, Exploit, Exploit.
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post #153 of 191
Let this be a lesson to you scum bag exploiters. Buying items from the vendor WILL get you banned! Play responsible.
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post #154 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

You purchased the parts KNOWING that there was an error. That's the difference and something that is illegal in real life. Sure you might get away with it but, that doesn't make it right, ethical or moral.
Again, this was only popularized AFTER these exploits were posted on Youtube/Reddit/Livestream and they were posted as EXPLOITS by those who posted them.
They knew it was an exploit prior to the purchase.
Which is why they were banned.
Those who innocently made the purchases were allowed to keep them.
There is no grey area in this situation.
I know people who bought all of their level 80 weapons, yet weren't banned.
I also know people that purchased 1 weapon, went to the forge, epic'd that weapon, sold it (You aren't supposed to even be able to sell them in the first place) and made 10+ gold, he was banned...He also KNEW it was an exploit prior to doing it. He even acknowledges it was an exploit, why can't you?
This was advertised as an exploit and those whom utilized the advertisement were dealt with in an appropriate manner. Period.

I think it is rather hilarious how you are getting so worked up over this, name calling, and using the term exploit left and right.

Here is the deal; This wasn't an exploit, on any level. A.Net made a mistake and are now blaming the player instead of themselves. Which is absolutely wrong! If one of my customers, I own an ISP, were being billed incorrectly for service, would I turn off their service? Nope! I find out who made the mistake in their billing and correct the situation internally, then contact the customer and let them know there was an error and let them know it has been corrected. Update them on their proper billing rates, and if it was a situation where they were overcharged, compensate them for the extra charges.

Further...

If I had gotten GW2, I thought about it, and ran into a vendor selling items cheaper then other vendors, I wouldn't think twice about buying them. Why? It wouldn't be the first time in a video game where one vendor sold an item cheaper than another. In the original Final Fantasy there was a hidden Black Magic and White Magic store, it sold high level spells for lower cost than any other store in the game. It was way out of the way and tricky to find, but it existed, and this is going back 25 years! Item pricing being different based of region and vendor in a video game is old, very very old!

Like I said in my original post, this "exploit" as you would call it, required nothing from the player other than walking up to a vendor and buying an item. That is it! This wasn't an exploit! There was no circumventing of systems, or any other manipulation of any systems! People just bought items, and god forbid a player in an MMO buys and sells for profit.....

I guarantee that in real life you have been in a situation where an item rung up at the register for less than the tag on the shelf. I also guarantee you didn't stop them and volunteer to pay the higher price, you paid the price that you were asked by the store to pay.

EDIT: Another example: Back in the WoW days of yesteryear I would often browse the AH and find items, ores typically, that people were trying to sell for less than what I was asking. I would buy up all the competitions ore, then re-list it at my asking price, making huge profits. I guess that makes me an "exploiter" and "self entitled"......
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 9/4/12 at 10:35am
    
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post #155 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmung View Post

Let this be a lesson to you scum bag exploiters. Buying items from the vendor WILL get you banned! Play responsible.

LOL The HORROR!

I was planning to pick this game up in a month or after they get the bugs worked out...like this one we are discussing, but I don't know if I want mess around with a company that...doesn't mess around. I so could see my self doing this and not ever worrying about it since it was part of the game and there was nothing telling me not to do it. I can't even imagine what I would do if I was banned because the developers didn't set the prices right on the vendor. The game is released...now it is play to win and it is a dog eat dog world. This exploit would not have even directly hurt other players (might have done a number on the economy over time though, but I doubt it was around long enough to do much).
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post #156 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

*snip*

I'm not worked up at all, actually.

After working on D3 I simply find this attitude to be disgusting and am indignant towards the folks from "the era of entitlement" even more-so than I was before.

Bottom line regardless of what anyone says in this thread, the character was not your property and this is actually covered in the original EULA.

If you spent 60$, you should have cared enough to follow their rules.

Every single example any of you have brought forth is a violation of a rule, be it ethical or moral, several legal issues as well.

With the exception of WoW, that's not you exploiting and taking advantage of a broken mechanic, that's simply supply and demand which, isn't illegal.

The Apple example above, has happened and both the employee/person that purchased the product were sued, I believe the employee is on probation if I'm correct?
post #157 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

EDIT: Another example: Back in the WoW days of yesteryear I would often browse the AH and find items, ores typically, that people were trying to sell for less than what I was asking. I would buy up all the competitions ore, then re-list it at my asking price, making huge profits. I guess that makes me an "exploiter" and "self entitled"......

No that is actually playing the market. The Human seller was willing to sell to you because they wanted to dump the item. They went out and worked the mines and hills to get the ore but in this case they were the commodity provider even acting as a wholesaler as you had no way of guaranteeing that you would be the only one purchasing this at a discount. It could be considered monopolistic behavior as your attempting to maintain a set ore price by trying to be the most available seller at your prices but there is still a chance that the moment your not on top of the market someone can buy some of it cheaper than you sell it for. The difference here is that the item was being purchased at discounted rate by mistake and could be purchased in unlimited quantities then upgraded at a below cost to then be resold at a much higher value. Essentially the players who were doing this had a magic sink that was supposed to provide a basic water but instead when you turned the handle out came fountains of solid gold nuggets.
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post #158 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

I'm not worked up at all, actually.
After working on D3 I simply find this attitude to be disgusting and am indignant towards the folks from "the era of entitlement" even more-so than I was before.
Bottom line regardless of what anyone says in this thread, the character was not your property and this is actually covered in the original EULA.
If you spent 60$, you should have cared enough to follow their rules.
Every single example any of you have brought forth is a violation of a rule, be it ethical or moral, several legal issues as well.
With the exception of WoW, that's not you exploiting and taking advantage of a broken mechanic, that's simply supply and demand which, isn't illegal.
The Apple example above, has happened and both the employee/person that purchased the product were sued, I believe the employee is on probation if I'm correct?

Give a concise reason as to how buying from their in game vendor is "a violation of a rule, be it ethical or moral, several legal issues as well."

I am also curious as to your repeated statement in regard to account ownership. I am not sure why you keep bringing this up, no one is arguing account ownership. If it is from the point of "Well you gave them money and they call pull access at anytime." Yes, you are right, they can. But something to fail to understand is that by accepting payment via a debit/credit card, they are also legally bound under the merchant laws. Which in most situations override an EULA.

As far as the bank is concerned, unless they terminated your paid access on justifiable ground, and buying an item from a vendor for the price asked by the game isn't one, they broke the merchant obligation. With that the customer is due reimbursement of their purchase. Just like if you went into Costco and bought an item for $100, and Costco showed up the next day and took it back because they had a pricing mistake and it was supposed to be $200, but refused to refund your $100. You as the customer are protected, not entitled, and are legally due compensation for your loss, in the form of a refund. Period.
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 9/4/12 at 11:02am
    
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post #159 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by drufause View Post

If it had been my choice about what to do with the players who were taking advantage of the situation here is how i would have handled it. 3 choices.
1 We delete your character and you can start over?
2 We put your account on a temporary 1 week ban and strip the item from everyone you sold it to telling them that you did not have the right to sell them an exploited item and anyone who wants their gold back its taken from your account or anyone you transferred the gold to?
3 we give you your money back and suspend your mac address, ip address and email address from participating the the game.?
Here is a quick analogy. You have a buddy that works at the apple store. He calls you said hey man get down to the store there is a code problem and the ipod xxx is selling for 5% of its expected cost. You rush down there lay your money down and clean the store out of the item. The brain dead cashier just rings up the sale. Now you go out to ebay to sell the item. You sell 5 of them right away at a 4x mark up adding your shipping charge that makes you even more profit. Suddenly your ebay sales start to be taken down and apple is reporting each ebay sale as not a fair use sale and you get a legal email from them telling you some legal mumbo jumbo about the sales....
Its apples fault cause your not exploiting the situation. That is what the vendor sold the item for I just thought there must have been a price drop so i bought every one they had. Cause that is exactly the same situation except its a digital vendor with an endless supply of the item. Its an Exploit, Exploit, Exploit, Exploit, Exploit, Exploit.

I'm not convinced. Maybe if you posted the word exploit at the end of your post a few more times, it'd help you get your point across.

Consider this. My brother told me they were giving away a free item on the gem store so I said "hey, cool" and I bought it. I had no gems, and figured they were just giving away the item. Which they were and still are. If I could have bought more and handed them out to friends, I would have (well, not really, I'd have just told them they could get the item free themselves to make it easier). And if people were crazy enough to buy a free item on the trading post, maybe I'd have posted a few as well (posting easy to get items for money on the auction house was pretty standard in the last game I played, after all). Now, this item, like every other item in the game, is a pretend virtual toy. I don't know whether it's supposed to be 100 gems, 500 gems, 1000 gems, or 0 gems. All I know is that they gave it away free on the gem store so I bought it. Tell me what in your mind makes this legitimate way of getting a free item on the gem store, less of an exploit than getting weapons for a great price from a vendor, considering that neither has a gigantic "THIS IS THE WRONG PRICE!" warning before you buy it.
post #160 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by drufause View Post

If it had been my choice about what to do with the players who were taking advantage of the situation here is how i would have handled it. 3 choices.
1 We delete your character and you can start over?
2 We put your account on a temporary 1 week ban and strip the item from everyone you sold it to telling them that you did not have the right to sell them an exploited item and anyone who wants their gold back its taken from your account or anyone you transferred the gold to?
3 we give you your money back and suspend your mac address, ip address and email address from participating the the game.?
Here is a quick analogy. You have a buddy that works at the apple store. He calls you said hey man get down to the store there is a code problem and the ipod xxx is selling for 5% of its expected cost. You rush down there lay your money down and clean the store out of the item. The brain dead cashier just rings up the sale. Now you go out to ebay to sell the item. You sell 5 of them right away at a 4x mark up adding your shipping charge that makes you even more profit. Suddenly your ebay sales start to be taken down and apple is reporting each ebay sale as not a fair use sale and you get a legal email from them telling you some legal mumbo jumbo about the sales....
Its apples fault cause your not exploiting the situation. That is what the vendor sold the item for I just thought there must have been a price drop so i bought every one they had. Cause that is exactly the same situation except its a digital vendor with an endless supply of the item. Its an Exploit, Exploit, Exploit, Exploit, Exploit, Exploit.


Just so you know, it doesn't work like that in the real world..if a company feels like charging you less then the average going price for an item its called a "SALE!"
After you buy the item, and the transaction is complete, the property is yours. You didn't exploit their system to drop the price, or steal the items, or do anything other then walk in tell them what you wanted pay what they asked and leave (your example specificity says the system has a code problem..not something they introduced just to get you a deal or anything). The items are yours. They fix it going forward and chalk it up as a loss that there is nothing they can legally do about it.

How you seem too think that buying an item from a vendor in the game, who's SOLE purpose of being there is to sell you stuff, and reselling it for a profit is an exploit or against the EULA is beyond my ability to fathom.
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