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Yes, yes there IS a difference between 60Hz and 120 Hz (video) - Page 8

post #71 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by seepra View Post

While you make good points, you greatly exaggerate the human eye's ability to discern stuff, OR the need for such at least. It's not like OLED screens would deliver a mind-blowing contrast ratios that makes sunlight blinding in comparison to absolutely dark nights, and most likely we wouldn't want that to happen even if they would, ie: we would be compressing the dynamic range of video footage just like we do with audio for whatever reason. If we're brutally honest it sounds like it's you who's sucking in to the elitism and gadget-hype, just the reverse end of the spectrum.

How exactly was I exaggerating? It's no secret that LCD has poor response times, and you don't have to have super human vision to see it. Side by side with a quality CRT, any LCD will have noticeable blurring in motion. Same applies to black levels. No one can deny that LCD has piss poor black levels, you'd have to have some pretty major eyesight issues if you did. And I never made any extravagant claims about OLED.

It's not like we're talking about anything subtle or particularly subjective here. You put an LCD displaying a black slide in a dark room and it's not black, it's glowing. My grandmother could tell me that.
Edited by Oubadah - 9/13/12 at 5:37pm
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post #72 of 129
Quote:
And as for the latter, well, this is where LCD is absolutely and undeniably inferior: The liquid crystal must physically move for a colour to change, and this will never happen instantaneously.
When did I say LCD should not exist in place of CRT? There are other technologies that should have replaced both LCD and CRT long ago. Like SED/FED and OLED. But why would manufacturers commit the time and resources into developing new display technologies when most of the ignorant fool consumers already think that their miserable LCD displays are the height of technological sophistication? rolleyes.gif

Sounds like your main argument is against capatolism

I also never said LCD is on top for... anything. im just saying that it has its advantages (many of them) over CRT.
Maybe one day monitors with a better formula for image quality will make its was to replace LCD, sure, thats fine and i consider it part of the evolution i was talking about (i should have been more specific than saying LCD... I meant the entire flatscreen scene)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oubadah View Post

How exactly was I exaggerating? It's no secret that LCD has poor response times, and you don't have to have super human vision to see it. Side by side with a quality CRT, any LCD will have noticeable blurring in motion. Same applies to black levels. No one can deny that LCD has piss poor black levels, you'd have to have some pretty major eyesight issues if you did. And I never made any extravagant claims about OLED.
It's not like we're talking about anything subtle or particularly subjective here. You put an LCD displaying a black slide in a dark room and it's not black, it's glowing. My grandmother could tell me that.

If its so undeniable, why are people not tossing their LCD out the window screeming "ITS BLURRY AND THE BLACK GLOWS D:< "

If you compare MANY things side by side of course you can see the difference, but truth be told, not many can see differences (or care) when witnessing on seperate occasions.

Sure maybe there ARE problems like you said... but truth be told, its not THAT bad..
im a human behaviour pessimist too, but i howver dont belive that we are just being suckered into the LCD scene through flashy words... Some maybe, but not the whole group of people who think its not THAT bad.
Edited by AlaskaFox - 9/13/12 at 7:05pm
post #73 of 129
A 120hz monitor or 1440p? 1st world problems...
 
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post #74 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindrage606 View Post

A 120hz monitor or 1440p? 1st world problems...

Hehe, yeah. seems that way doesnt it tongue.gif
I couldnt descide for the longest time if i wanted better resolution or faster frames. Price was a big contibuter, but i also began thinking that if i want more resolution ill just eyefinity.


Hey, has anyone ever used a single 120hz monitor between 2 60hz monitors? theoreticly wouldnt your periferal vission kinda null out the fact that the side monitors are running half the FPS if your focus is on the middle?
post #75 of 129
I will be buying a Asus 120hz monitor for my new build. If i get a single 680 or 7970 will the difference be clear compared to a 60hz? Or is it only worth it if you sli/cf as the other person said.
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post #76 of 129
120Hz has 50% less motion blur than 60Hz.
I'd like to see "960Hz" (simulated) and have more than 90% less blur in an LCD
This can be done using a high-speed scanning backlight - already being done in some LCD HDTV's, but not in computer monitors.
This would allow LCD's to have less motion blur than CRT!

A scanning backlight can be dark 90% of the time, and bright 10% of the time -- this will reduce motion blur by another 90%. Combine that with 120Hz, and you can have "960Hz-like" motion clarity with a 120Hz signal. High end HDTV's already do this (google "Samsung CMR 960" or "Sony XR 960", though they combine 240Hz motion interpolation and a 75%:25% dark:bright scanning backlight, to get the rest of the way to "960".) I would like to exclude motion interpolation which adds artifacts and input lag. However, scanning backlights are possible to do without any added input lag.

BENQ had a scanning backlight for their FP241WZ (back in year 2006), but the backlight was dark only about 25% of the time, reducing motion blur by only 25%. The monitor was also overpriced. It was called "AMA" (see TFT Central)
ama_diagram.jpg

Today, the expensive Samsung/Sony HDTV's utilizing a scanning backlight, are already doing at 75%:25% dark:bright. LED's are getting brighter and brighter, so it should be possible to do a 90%:10% dark:bright scanning backlight, for CRT-like blur-free motion. A scanning backlight would emulate the scanning illumination of phosphor, much like this YouTube video (high speed camera on a CRT):


A scanning LED backlight would behave similiarly -- you'd have a brief, bright 1/960th second illumination of backlight (row of LED's behind already-refreshed portions of LCD) while waiting for the dark portions of LCD to finish refreshing. I'd like to see scanning backlights in LCD computer monitors, to bring 90% reduction in motion blur to LCD's via combining 120Hz LCD and a a high-speed LED scanning backlight. It would be suitable for computers and gaming, as scanning backlights can be done without *additional* input lag (beyond existing LCD input lag), since motion interpolation can be omitted.

It hasn't been practical until now, due to the expense of extremely bright backlight necessary, because a backlight that's dark 90% of the time, needs to be 10 times brighter, if it is illuminated only 10% of the time. Thankfully, LED's have fallen greatly in price -- it's now possible to put 100 watts of LED's behind a 24" LCD for less than $50. (Search eBay terms: "600 LED light strip" = 50 watts = only $11, although the good ones with 6500K and good color are more expensive). You'd only be illuminating between 10-15W of LED's at a time, in a scanning backlight. Old scanning backlights (like in expensive BENQ's) weren't worth it, but today, it's ecnomically possible to pull it off reasonably cheaply, and there's enough market for an "Alienware" style computer monitor to be popular/profitable even at just 1000 units. (Just marketing it as a "LCD monitor with less motion blur than CRT" and by its own rave reviews from video gamers)

There's some vigorous discussion about scanning backlights in this thread posted in another forum:
Home-made Arduino scanning LED backlight to simulate 480Hz or 960Hz in a 120Hz LCD?
(I should post a copy of my post here, so discussion can take place here)
Edited by mdrejhon - 9/13/12 at 8:52pm
post #77 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaFox View Post

Sounds like your main argument is against capatolism
I also never said LCD is on top for... anything. im just saying that it has its advantages (many of them) over CRT.
Maybe one day monitors with a better formula for image quality will make its was to replace LCD, sure, thats fine and i consider it part of the evolution i was talking about (i should have been more specific than saying LCD... I meant the entire flatscreen scene)
If its so undeniable, why are people not tossing their LCD out the window screeming "ITS BLURRY AND THE BLACK GLOWS D:< "
If you compare MANY things side by side of course you can see the difference, but truth be told, not many can see differences (or care) when witnessing on seperate occasions.
Sure maybe there ARE problems like you said... but truth be told, its not THAT bad..
im a human behaviour pessimist too, but i howver dont belive that we are just being suckered into the LCD scene through flashy words... Some maybe, but not the whole group of people who think its not THAT bad.

Usually, they only think it's "not that bad" because they're in a state of ignorance. People have become desensitized to the flaws of LCD, often purely through lack of exposure to anything else. Not to mention that the initial comparison would have typically been: old, worn out CRT vs brand new LCD - not exactly fair. So they end up with a distorted view. Believe me, I know how it works: When I use exclusively LCDs for a few months I start to think "well this isn't so bad..." , and then I see a quality running CRT and get a rude awakening. People get used to LCD, and eventually regard it as a perfectly acceptable norm. But this is still no excuse for massive regression that LCD represents in so many aspects of image quality compared to CRT. Also many people may not have experienced a quality CRT in the first place - Just recently there was a post in another thread where one user was expressing their negative views on CRT. They started by saying: "I've seen plenty of CRT's in my day..." and then later: "Not to mention the massive bulk and goofy distortion caused by the convex screens". Now, despite being of the opinion that they'd "seen plenty of CRT's", it's pretty evident to me that their experience with CRTs is limited to older or lower end - probably Shadow Mask - models (none of the modern high end CRTs had convex screens) and this puts them in no position to be passing judgement either way.

What most people seem to have now, is rather foggy, distant memories of their experiences with God knows what model of less-than-healthy, poorly configured CRT monitor, which they use as their basis for comparing one technology to the other. "Horrible flicker", "distortion", 'terrible eyestrain" and excessive "noise" are examples of the types of CRT complaints that make me take take that person's opinion on CRTs in general with a substantial grain of salt. It's true that LCDs could be considered more "idiot friendly" in terms of set up and maintenance, but that's of little relevance to this discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperion. View Post

I will be buying a Asus 120hz monitor for my new build. If i get a single 680 or 7970 will the difference be clear compared to a 60hz? Or is it only worth it if you sli/cf as the other person said.

The answer to that question depends on any number of factors, such as the games you intend to play, the rest of your system specs, your expectations for detail levels, AA, etc.

The games that I play at 120Hz/fps are generally older titles, and I find that my CPU presents the biggest bottleneck. And I would not even consider dual cards - I use a 120Hz monitor for enhanced smoothness/fluidity in motion, the last thing I want is AFR microstutter.
Edited by Oubadah - 9/14/12 at 6:45am
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post #78 of 129
I used to play some games with my laptop @ ~17 FPS and I thought it was fine. Now, with a new machine and solid 60fps the laptop framerates are unplayable. I think it'll be the same when I get a 120Hz monitor in the future.
    
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post #79 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oubadah View Post

The answer to that question depends on any number of factors, such as the games you intend to play, the rest of your system specs, your expectations for detail levels, AA, etc.
The games that I play at 120Hz/fps are generally older titles, and I find that my CPU presents the biggest bottleneck. And I would not even consider dual cards - I use a 120Hz monitor for enhanced smoothness/fluidity in motion, the last thing I want is AFR microstutter.

Current build i'm putting together(still unsure about the video card)
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I will be playing games like

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post #80 of 129
My old aperture grill CRT at 160 Hz my parents purchased for me was great for playing Quake 3 and CS back then. coolsmiley.png
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