Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Monitors and Displays › Yes, yes there IS a difference between 60Hz and 120 Hz (video)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Yes, yes there IS a difference between 60Hz and 120 Hz (video) - Page 9

post #81 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post

If you know some basic science about the human eye, the video in the OP is a waste of time. The human eye has a 'motion lag' of 10ms - in other words, it takes 10ms to even notice an object has moved in the environment. Men have better motion detection while women have better colour perception. These are of course all 'on average'.
Summed up and applied to computer monitors: Anything up to 100Hz, you will notice the 'smoothness' or motion detection. Over it, no.
Wrong. It's not that simple. See below:
Quote:
Several people do not believe that the human eye can tell motion fluidity beyond ~60fps. It's true that a human eye can't usually tell flicker or strobing at high rates. However, the human eye is capable of indirectly detecting discontinuities that results from high frequency rates (wagon wheel effects, DLP rainbow artifacts, motion blur, beat frequency interference effects, etc).

Motion blur is a big problem for LCD. However, some high end $3000+ HDTV's are doing "240Hz" and "960Hz" emulation (google "Samsung CMR 960" and "Sony XR 960").

EXAMPLE: Fast panning scene is moving across the screen at 1 inch every 1/60th of a second. Let's say, your eye is tracking a sharp object during the screen pan. Each frame smears across your vision field of a static frame, while your eyes are continuously tracking an object. That's persistence of vision. That creates the motion blur effect on continuously-shining displays (most LCD's). So strictly by the numbers for fast-panning motion moving at 1 inch every 1/60 second:

For fast motion moving at 1 inch every 1/60th second:
At 60Hz, the motion blur is 1" thick (entry level HDTV's, regular monitors) ...
At 120Hz, the motion blur is 0.5" thick (120Hz computer monitors, interpolated HDTV's) ...
At 240Hz, the motoin blur is 0.25" thick (interpolated HDTV's)...
At 480Hz, the motion blur is 0.125" thick ...
At 960Hz, the motion blur is 0.0625" thick (CRT style, high end HDTV's) ...

Yes, you notice the point of diminishing returns -- but it is worth observing that you have 50% less motion blur at 120Hz, but you have 93.75% less motion blur at 960Hz!

Higher "Hz" can be /simulated/ via a variety of techniques:
- Motion interpolation (not desirable for computers)
- Scanning/Flicker (like CRT, or scanning backlight, or black frame insertion)
- Natively (requires more computer horsepower)

CRT's have equivalence roughly to between 500Hz-1000Hz, thanks to phosphor decay of about 1-2 milliseconds (1/1000th sec or 1/500th sec). For LCD's the easiest way to enhance motion is a scanning backlight. Because of the motion blur effect, experienced gamers who have compared technologies, have noticed that 60fps@60Hz on CRT (due to its flicker giving "960Hz" equivalence) is still clearer motion than 120fps@120Hz on LCD.

Edited by mdrejhon - 9/13/12 at 9:50pm
post #82 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperion. View Post

Current build i'm putting together(still unsure about the video card)
PCPartPicker part list: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/hoDs
Price breakdown by merchant: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/hoDs/by_merchant/
Benchmarks: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/hoDs/benchmarks/
CPU: Intel Core i5-3570K 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor ($215.99 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($27.99 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: MSI Z77 MPOWER ATX LGA1155 Motherboard ($209.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($94.99 @ NCIX US)
Storage: Crucial M4 128GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($99.99 @ B&H)
Video Card: Sapphire Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition 3GB Video Card ($449.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: Corsair Enthusiast 750W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply ($85.99 @ NCIX US)
Optical Drive: Asus DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS DVD/CD Writer ($21.89 @ Outlet PC)
Monitor: Asus VG236H 120Hz 23.0" Monitor ($338.98 @ Newegg)
Total: $1545.80
(Prices include shipping and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2012-09-14 00:08 EDT-0400)
I will be playing games like
Borderlands 2
skyrim
farcry 3
witcher 2

I can only comment on Skyrim. Unfortunately the horrid gamebryo engine will give you all sorts of grief if you run it at frame rates above 60fps (flashing sky, timing issues etc.). I would highly recommend keeping it capped at 60fps at all times.

There is still a pretty significant bonus to running Skyrim on a 120Hz monitor though: V-Sync lag at 120Hz is less than V-Sync lag at 60 Hz. You can run the game at 120Hz with V-Sync enabled (and a 60fps cap to address above mentioned issues), and it'll be a lot more responsive than if you just played at 60Hz V-Synced.
Skylake I
(10 items)
 
Skylake II
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i7-6700K 4GHz Gigabyte GA-Z170X-Designare F23a Corsair LPX 32GB CMK32GX4M4A2133C13 Samsung SSD 840 PRO 256GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSPower
Samsung SSD 840 PRO 256GB Noctua NH-U12S (+NF-S12A PWM) Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1/Windows 10 Pro x64 Super Flower Leadex Gold 750W 
CaseAudio
Corsair Carbide Air 540 (+3x NF-S12A FLX) Asus Xonar Essence STX 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i7-6700K 4GHz Gigabyte GA-Z170X-Designare F23a Corsair LPX 32GB CMK32GX4M4A2133C13 Samsung SSD 840 PRO 512GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSPower
Samsung SSD 840 PRO 512GB Noctua NH-U12S (+NF-S12A PWM) Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1/Windows 10 Pro x64 EVGA SuperNOVA G2 750W 
Case
Silverstone Fortress FT02 (+4x NF-A14 PWM) 
  hide details  
Reply
Skylake I
(10 items)
 
Skylake II
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i7-6700K 4GHz Gigabyte GA-Z170X-Designare F23a Corsair LPX 32GB CMK32GX4M4A2133C13 Samsung SSD 840 PRO 256GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSPower
Samsung SSD 840 PRO 256GB Noctua NH-U12S (+NF-S12A PWM) Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1/Windows 10 Pro x64 Super Flower Leadex Gold 750W 
CaseAudio
Corsair Carbide Air 540 (+3x NF-S12A FLX) Asus Xonar Essence STX 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i7-6700K 4GHz Gigabyte GA-Z170X-Designare F23a Corsair LPX 32GB CMK32GX4M4A2133C13 Samsung SSD 840 PRO 512GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSPower
Samsung SSD 840 PRO 512GB Noctua NH-U12S (+NF-S12A PWM) Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1/Windows 10 Pro x64 EVGA SuperNOVA G2 750W 
Case
Silverstone Fortress FT02 (+4x NF-A14 PWM) 
  hide details  
Reply
post #83 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindrage606 View Post

A 120hz monitor or 1440p? 1st world problems...

I solved mine, bought a Achieva Shimian! thumb.gif
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 5820K AsRock Extreme6 X99 Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti Windforce OC 16 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 840 EVO 250GB - HDD Speed Edtition Samsung SM951 512 GB - I still hate Samsung!  Noctua NHD14 Windows 10 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Achieva Shimian QH270-Lite Overlord Computer Tempest X27OC  Acer Predator XB270HU Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Seasonic X-1250 Fractal Design R5 Razer Naga Razer Goliathus Alpha 
AudioAudio
AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition Creative Sound Blaster Zx 
  hide details  
Reply
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 5820K AsRock Extreme6 X99 Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti Windforce OC 16 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 840 EVO 250GB - HDD Speed Edtition Samsung SM951 512 GB - I still hate Samsung!  Noctua NHD14 Windows 10 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Achieva Shimian QH270-Lite Overlord Computer Tempest X27OC  Acer Predator XB270HU Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Seasonic X-1250 Fractal Design R5 Razer Naga Razer Goliathus Alpha 
AudioAudio
AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition Creative Sound Blaster Zx 
  hide details  
Reply
post #84 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaFox View Post

The thing is, bit by bit i notice lcd technology integrating the reasons crt lovers still hold onto, and rapidly making it mainstream. The most common example is 120hz. I dont see more lcd trashing in any other topic than this.
My theory?
They are worried that one day it will come a time where they will have to suck up their pride and admit that lcd no longer has x number of unforgivable disadvantages and you dont have to "sacrafice" anything when going from crt to lcd.

I would keep those theories out of topics like this because it turns in mud flinging which this thread has already turned in to. I don't think LCDs do as good as job of stretching 2d like CRTs do but, like you said the keep uping the quality.
Core 2 Haf
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
C2Q Q9550 ASUS P5E3 Deluxe Wifi-AP GTX 480 Kingston HyperX DDR3 KHX1600C9D3K2/8G 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
PNY 1333 55gb, 320Gb, 500GB, 1TB Hyper 212 EVO Win 7 Ultimate 64bit 
OSOSPowerCase
Lubuntu 13.04 x64 OS X 10.8.5 TX750 Haf 912 
  hide details  
Reply
Core 2 Haf
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
C2Q Q9550 ASUS P5E3 Deluxe Wifi-AP GTX 480 Kingston HyperX DDR3 KHX1600C9D3K2/8G 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
PNY 1333 55gb, 320Gb, 500GB, 1TB Hyper 212 EVO Win 7 Ultimate 64bit 
OSOSPowerCase
Lubuntu 13.04 x64 OS X 10.8.5 TX750 Haf 912 
  hide details  
Reply
post #85 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindrage606 View Post

A 120hz monitor or 1440p? 1st world problems...
Indeed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWEpIwNDeCA&list=UUjTCFFq605uuq4YN4VmhkBA&index=8&feature=plcp
IMO the point the Linus video was trying to make is that if you watch the first video (^here) someone with no 120hz experience can't tell the difference.
Bessy
(13 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 3770k Msi Z77 MPower MSI R7950 Twinfrozr MSI R7950 Twinfrozr 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Corsair Dominator Platinum (4x4gb) ddr3 2133 CM... Western Digital 2tb Black Samsung 840 Pro Series 256gb SSD Corsair H100i 
OSPowerCase
Windows 8 Pro 64bit Corsair Professional Gold 850w Corsair Obsidian 650D 
  hide details  
Reply
Bessy
(13 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 3770k Msi Z77 MPower MSI R7950 Twinfrozr MSI R7950 Twinfrozr 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Corsair Dominator Platinum (4x4gb) ddr3 2133 CM... Western Digital 2tb Black Samsung 840 Pro Series 256gb SSD Corsair H100i 
OSPowerCase
Windows 8 Pro 64bit Corsair Professional Gold 850w Corsair Obsidian 650D 
  hide details  
Reply
post #86 of 129
That video is flawed.

The Benq XL2420t has super fast overdrive (with excessive overshoot), which gives identical pixel response at 60hz and 120hz. It was a terrible choice for such a blind test. Few 60hz only monitors come anywhere near the pixel response of the Benq.

The game is giving 84fps while staring at the floor. I doubt it gives more than 60fps during action. With the above pixel response and overdrive taken into account, it is no wonder someone never having seen 120hz before was confused.
My System
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3570k @ 4.4ghz Asus Z77 Deluxe GTX970 SLI 24GB 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Acer XB270HU CM QuickFire Red - PBT white keycaps Seasonic X-850 Raven RV02 
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
Roccat Savu Zowie P-TF Onkyo SE-90 Marantz PM7003 amplifier 
OtherOther
Wharfedale 10.1 speakers Sennheiser HD598 
  hide details  
Reply
My System
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3570k @ 4.4ghz Asus Z77 Deluxe GTX970 SLI 24GB 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Acer XB270HU CM QuickFire Red - PBT white keycaps Seasonic X-850 Raven RV02 
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
Roccat Savu Zowie P-TF Onkyo SE-90 Marantz PM7003 amplifier 
OtherOther
Wharfedale 10.1 speakers Sennheiser HD598 
  hide details  
Reply
post #87 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by whybother View Post

The Benq XL2420t has super fast overdrive (with excessive overshoot), which gives identical pixel response at 60hz and 120hz.

While you are correct about the over drive, the BenQ will still feel much smoother than a 60hz display. A 120hz display playing a game @60fps will still feel smoother than when it is set to 60hz. A casual gamer who dosn't really know what a 120hz display is or does is not going to notice ghosting.
Edited by MenacingTuba - 9/15/12 at 10:59am
Dr. Tesla
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770k MSI Z87 MPOWER MAX Zotac GTX 980 Ti AMP! Extreme Patriot Viper 3 Series, Sapphire Blue Edition D... 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Corsair H80 Windows 7 Ultimate X-Star DP2710 Glossy Qnix QX2710 Matte 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
Viewsonic VP2780-4K HP 25er Razer Black Widow Ultimate Antec HCP 1200w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Lian Li PC-P80 Razer Lachesis Roccat Sense Glacier Blue Beyerdynamic T90 Jubilee 
Audio
Essence HDACC 
  hide details  
Reply
Dr. Tesla
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770k MSI Z87 MPOWER MAX Zotac GTX 980 Ti AMP! Extreme Patriot Viper 3 Series, Sapphire Blue Edition D... 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Corsair H80 Windows 7 Ultimate X-Star DP2710 Glossy Qnix QX2710 Matte 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
Viewsonic VP2780-4K HP 25er Razer Black Widow Ultimate Antec HCP 1200w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Lian Li PC-P80 Razer Lachesis Roccat Sense Glacier Blue Beyerdynamic T90 Jubilee 
Audio
Essence HDACC 
  hide details  
Reply
post #88 of 129
It was tested ,and people couldn't notice a difference between 60 and 120.this was created to hide one fact .plasma vs LCD.test it same 60 hertz one plasma one LCD .plasma is smoother.remember that 1\60 is 16 ms not a long time .why did LCD do that .to hide the fact that lcl real life response time was the culprit.this was tested with a 2 to 3 time faster the screen refresh.they would record them view each frame on the camera and would see what actually was the issue .lcd cannot keep up with the data it receive .(blurr occur)this doesn't happen on plasma.i don't need to supply link this can be tested very easy by any with a 2 to 3 time faster speed then screen.(yep as usual screen industry played the confusion card to sell screen.me my issue is I would like a guide for edid counter part in regedit setting .i found too many error related to edid and regedit setting sadly a lot of setting don't know where to find them in regedit.i bet in computer we re supposed to be set at 1920 x 1088 (actual meant HD )but get set to 1080 .(which I bet is the cause we need anti aliasing)we ll see I'll test it next week on gw2. 1080 was done by movie industry screen were already in 1920x1088),but mpeg2?didn't want to make change so some addedanother useless procède vallée cropping ,even tho everything on thé planer id zone in 1920 x1088 after that user Tell:why we lag?
Edited by drbaltazar - 9/15/12 at 11:25am
post #89 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

I would keep those theories out of topics like this because it turns in mud flinging which this thread has already turned in to. I don't think LCDs do as good as job of stretching 2d like CRTs do but, like you said the keep uping the quality.

Its simply the reason i see for people bashing on others who preffer their flatscreens.
The shortmindedness of the people who continue to insult people over liking LCD for WHATEVER reason just kinda gets on my nerves.
Its energy efficiant
"thats not good enough"
its space efficiant
"thats not good enough"
I didnt like any crts before
"you didnt find a good one"


At this point im just thinking "shut up and stop forcing it on people"
its like a homophobe trying to convince a gay person they just havent found the right girl yet, its stupid.
post #90 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

Linus is correct.

But we already knew that.

After going 120hz, you can tell when it's 60hz.

Yep. I thought it might be smoother, but not this much smoother!

It feels so nice just on the desktop.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Monitors and Displays
Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Monitors and Displays › Yes, yes there IS a difference between 60Hz and 120 Hz (video)