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post #281 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by alltoasters View Post

It means you probably care about computers. Enough that you don't exclusively use a locked down one that is of no use besides browsing, which is the only real task the majority of computer users do.
I care more about society. The benefits of automated cars can be calculated... and has been done a few times already.

Would you be able to provide any study on the benefit of locking down computers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alltoasters View Post

They can. Not directly or with intent, but in a position where they are in control of anything that could potentially kill, there is always a chance that they can go wrong. That's why there tend to be manual overrides. Computers are not infallible, and almost certainly never will be.
Wrong. The use of a computer in itself cannot kill anyone. The use of any car CAN kill someone.

The computers that operate devices or systems that can kill humans are liable. Therefore, they have legal obligation. Hence, medical, military, aerospace, and industrial devices get certified and cost 2-5 times as much.

Computers are not infallible but humans are not either. Computers are more reliable and can be redundant.... not so with a human driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alltoasters View Post

Must? For what? Everyone could run the same OS and while it wouldn't be ideal, we'd all still be here.
You aren't a programmer are you?

How many different OS and distros are out there today? Tens of thousands.

Why? Because different requirements call for different designs. A network switch is not going to run an OS designed for HPC. A master/slave distributed cluster is not going to run a OS designed for TV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alltoasters View Post

Of course it does. The cost of laying down those new fibre cables (fixing breaks in them isn't easy either) , Running internet service providers, Various other involved IT services, all costs considerable sums of money. Besides, It's a meaningless comparison because even if all cars were automated, the roads would still need to be maintained.
Laying fiber is done by mostly non-public companies. An ISP is a private company. IT costs are private costs.

You miss the point.... roads will still have to be maintained. BUT we can get 40-270% more use of the the same road. That means we do not have build more roads and the return on the dollar is higher. i.e. 1mi of highway costs $50K to maintain and 1M cars use it. With automated cars, the same 1mi costs $70K (higher wear) but 2M cars use it. The benefit outweighs the cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alltoasters View Post

No, Not everyone can write code. In fact, few can. If you are referring to writing meaningful text, then not even that is true, or trolls wouldn't exist.
Computers give the capability to everyone to code, write, communicate, draw, compose music, etc for virtually free. Computers allow people to be creative, produce something, and learn.
Driving does not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alltoasters View Post

Maybe, but I also meant to say that HTML would have to be excluded from the coding ban, because that is fairly safe and without it the web couldn't even work. Most of the value in computers today is on the web, so that's the main one.
You fail to realize the complexity of the issue. How many languages do you know? Do you know why there are so many languages? Different requirements means different tools.

There is huge amount of value being generated in improved and new applications..... just go check the open source software community. The value of their free distributed code is worth billions annually. Hadoop is a great example.... this new concept now runs Facebook and other major companies. A lot of companies will be facing the Big Data issue in a few years but the development today will help to mitigate that issue in the future.
Furthermore, there is a huge amount of value in private companies selling software and writing internal proprietary software. We are talking about trillions of dollars here. For example, a company called Blackrock decided to write a trading software in the 90s. It was so good that they were trading better than other companies and even sold their software to other companies. A Blackrock share was worth $13 in 1999 and is now worth $180. They used computers and technology to dominate the market before anyone else did.

If software was locked out..... our entire financial system would collapse. Silicon Valley, New York, Austin, DC, Huntsville, and other tech centers would collapse. Trillions would be lost. So there is value in software development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alltoasters View Post

A ban like that is not practical, and hard to enforce, but that's the point. It would be equally as hard to enact and enforce a law banning humans from driving. People would try to get around it, just as with any other law.
A ban on computers is not practical and hard to enforce. Computers must execute code to do something. If the execute code, then you can take leverage this to do something. A ban on humans operating cars is practical and easy to enforce. The practicality is related to benefit (as already listed) and difficulty in implementation (already working). The enforcement is easy... How many horses do see on the highway today?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alltoasters View Post

And that is my point. I don't want to be locked out for doing something because of other people's fear driven opinions.
I don't want the world to waste money, gas, and lives just because some people's opinions are based on selfish wants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicBox View Post

Cars have mass. No matter how much a computer wants to decide so, the car can only deviate from its course a relative amount. To properly calculate a safe course amongst unpredictable factors the ability to anticipate becomes a requirement. For that, data most be logged or otherwise processed to recognize time based patterns. The software really won't be as easy to write as any of you may think.
Audi's way is the way to go. Using vision for navigation rather than a virtual location, as a virtual location/marker will never transmit geological detail that will directly impact the car. With the aid of GPS, but rely on camera for actual close range navigation. Now the Audi is facing nothing but some dirt on a closed track, software development mainly goes into car control, Thus, creating a driver that can control the car efficiently through the track. Howver, that driver would not have a clue about how to resolve complex traffic situations.
Add into this mix pedestrians and cyclists, and you can simply not evade the human factor interacting with traffic. Unless those cars were prohibited in town, or be put underground, or otherwise not directly intersecting with any other non automated traffic. That will cost a an enormous amount to change over cities to separate the types of traffic.
The first thing to do to create a driver that could drive a car amongst other living beings is to be able to simulate a human brain and its powerful pattern matching and decision making, augmented with all the sensory input. When that can be done, we can have fully automated cars that would not only drive you to your destination, but also chat to you about their day. Or other cars smile.gif
Your argument is moot.

Again.... robot cars ALREADY exist. They drive through the city of San Francisco today. They have driven from Italy to a city in China. They have encountered cyclists and pedestrians.... and they haven't killed anyone yet.

The cost of not converting is higher than the cost of converting. Therefore, it would happen in a free market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicBox View Post

The picture does not show the truth of the statement because you're missing a second picture: A vertically stretched picture. When you want a higher topspeed (velocity) over a given distance, you will need to increase the (de)acceleration, whether it would be a constant factor (@%#$%#$% jerky) or not. One can smoothe the acceleration factor, but the deltas themselves WILL be bigger when a higher top speed is wanted.
Increasing topspeed around the 'hood would have to make me brake and accelerate like crazy before bends. Increased wear and tear it would cause as well.
However, distance is a function of time. Why does one have to achieve a certain velocity within a given distance? This isn't a race.

Constant acceleration/deceleration to desired speeds again would address the other poster's concerns though.

Increasing the topspeed would NOT force you to brake and accelerate more. The system is not required to achieve top speed immediately (like how driving is today). You reach top speed through safe acceleration. If YOU wanted to be at top speeds all the time, then there would much higher and often acceleration and deceleration.... but why would a commuter system do that at the cost of passenger discomfort? An emergency system might but not a commuter system where time is not as critical.
Edited by DuckieHo - 9/21/12 at 4:53am
Once again...
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post #282 of 299
I hate to say it but, I welcome this. To drive on the roads, you need to adhere to hundreds of rules and be fairly aware 100% of the time. Those rules take a driver at least a year to fully come to terms with, even then the awareness of the driver can vary from time to time. It's clear many people today are not capable of this standard of self. The reasons for that are for another discussion.

Benefits of automatic transport:
  • Almost instant reaction times, compared to the 0.3s human visual response time.
  • Traffic management, this is a complex one, but being able to monitor and control every vehicle in a given area during a peak time allows for movements to be synchronised, making traffic jams impossible.

A system to stick to these pretty strict, clear and unchanging rules - to me - makes absolute, undeniable sense. Sure, your personal liberties are being encroached, but you're living in a system which is becoming more complex, more dense and it demands efficiency. Regardless of your own driving ability or love for driving, it's simply irresponsible and selfish to say that everyone must drive their vehicle. Automated navigation, traffic management, and whatever computers can manage can only bring about efficiency.

One thing I can see being a problem, is there's no longer any individual to blame when someone does get hit by a car, making lawsuits and your rights in general a bit woollier, which of course is convenient for the system, not for you. This will be a problem, no doubt, as it opens another avenue for manipulation.
post #283 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajslay View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

That's not what we mean by designing your own engine. You just put pre-existing parts together. rolleyes.gif
It's like saying you designed your computer.... no, you just assembled parts and ensured compatibility.

your funny. id like to see you build an engine. its not easy.
and not everything was pre existing. for example, the heads. I designed how the fuel flows in my engine with the porting and polishing. the same with the intake manifold.

AND, I don't know any car enthusiasts that "models the thermodynamics" LOL.
a real car enthusiast is a grease monkey that gets under the car and fixes things themselves, builds engines themselves, makes them faster, perform better , handle better, and they do it for fun. because they get the satisfaction that THEY did it, and not someone else or some stupid computer. same goes for nascar, indy car, truck races, etc. you can never replace a REAL car. no matter how much you want something to drive you around for the rest of your life lol

Well I've built one or two, it ain't hard....

If I had to compare what you did to your car to computers, I'd say its a heavy volt mod to allow more overclocking.

As for the gearbox, yeah you'd have to give specifics of what actually you did. Besides got it from a bird.
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post #284 of 299
Will only be allowed to travel to government authorized locations.
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post #285 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

I care more about society. The benefits of automated cars can be calculated... and has been done a few times already.
Would you be able to provide any study on the benefit of locking down computers?
Wrong. The use of a computer in itself cannot kill anyone. The use of any car CAN kill someone.
The computers that operate devices or systems that can kill humans are liable. Therefore, they have legal obligation. Hence, medical, military, aerospace, and industrial devices get certified and cost 2-5 times as much.
Computers are not infallible but humans are not either. Computers are more reliable and can be redundant.... not so with a human driver.
You aren't a programmer are you?
How many different OS and distros are out there today? Tens of thousands.
Why? Because different requirements call for different designs. A network switch is not going to run an OS designed for HPC. A master/slave distributed cluster is not going to run a OS designed for TV.
Laying fiber is done by mostly non-public companies. An ISP is a private company. IT costs are private costs.
You miss the point.... roads will still have to be maintained. BUT we can get 40-270% more use of the the same road. That means we do not have build more roads and the return on the dollar is higher. i.e. 1mi of highway costs $50K to maintain and 1M cars use it. With automated cars, the same 1mi costs $70K (higher wear) but 2M cars use it. The benefit outweighs the cost.
Computers give the capability to everyone to code, write, communicate, draw, compose music, etc for virtually free. Computers allow people to be creative, produce something, and learn.
Driving does not.
You fail to realize the complexity of the issue. How many languages do you know? Do you know why there are so many languages? Different requirements means different tools.
There is huge amount of value being generated in improved and new applications..... just go check the open source software community. The value of their free distributed code is worth billions annually. Hadoop is a great example.... this new concept now runs Facebook and other major companies. A lot of companies will be facing the Big Data issue in a few years but the development today will help to mitigate that issue in the future.
Furthermore, there is a huge amount of value in private companies selling software and writing internal proprietary software. We are talking about trillions of dollars here. For example, a company called Blackrock decided to write a trading software in the 90s. It was so good that they were trading better than other companies and even sold their software to other companies. A Blackrock share was worth $13 in 1999 and is now worth $180. They used computers and technology to dominate the market before anyone else did.
If software was locked out..... our entire financial system would collapse. Silicon Valley, New York, Austin, DC, Huntsville, and other tech centers would collapse. Trillions would be lost. So there is value in software development.

A ban on computers is not practical and hard to enforce. Computers must execute code to do something. If the execute code, then you can take leverage this to do something. A ban on humans operating cars is practical and easy to enforce. The practicality is related to benefit (as already listed) and difficulty in implementation (already working). The enforcement is easy... How many horses do see on the highway today?
I don't want the world to waste money, gas, and lives just because some people's opinions are based on selfish wants.
Your argument is moot.
Again.... robot cars ALREADY exist. They drive through the city of San Francisco today. They have driven from Italy to a city in China. They have encountered cyclists and pedestrians.... and they haven't killed anyone yet.
The cost of not converting is higher than the cost of converting. Therefore, it would happen in a free market.
However, distance is a function of time. Why does one have to achieve a certain velocity within a given distance? This isn't a race.
Constant acceleration/deceleration to desired speeds again would address the other poster's concerns though.
Increasing the topspeed would NOT force you to brake and accelerate more. The system is not required to achieve top speed immediately (like how driving is today). You reach top speed through safe acceleration. If YOU wanted to be at top speeds all the time, then there would much higher and often acceleration and deceleration.... but why would a commuter system do that at the cost of passenger discomfort? An emergency system might but not a commuter system where time is not as critical.

You are dense. Sorry for flatout saying. I know ".... robot cars ALREADY exist. They drive through the city of San Francisco today. They have driven from Italy to a city in China. They have encountered cyclists and pedestrians.... and they haven't killed anyone yet.
".

Your point is in fact moot and you have a serious trouble recognizing what people mean and or know. I've used the word audacity before and it's well used here.

Go on about distance trying to be clever while the given point in this scenario is the fixed distance, corner-to-corner distance. That's not dynamic. What you are talking about is distance traveled.

You're not interesting to discuss with as you are not discussing but merely semantically nitpicking, chosing to ignore entire viewpoints of people.
Edited by MagicBox - 9/21/12 at 2:24pm
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post #286 of 299
tbh nobody is really going to care about a few diehard auto enthusiasts when switching will save lives and money. The govt won't even need to force people out of old style cars, the economics of car insurance will do it all on it's own. And if that didn't... then yes, I would be perfectly fine with the govt regulating that people aren't allowed to drive anymore. I see it as no different then now with speed limits and seat belt laws and distracted driving laws, and all the other rules and regulations that make driving safe now. Automated driving is just the ultimate next step to take transportation into the future.
post #287 of 299
I would rather sleep and let my car drive than sit in gridlocked traffic for a hour on the way home. Can't wait till my car drives me around for free. thumb.gif
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post #288 of 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

tbh nobody is really going to care about a few diehard auto enthusiasts when switching will save lives and money. The govt won't even need to force people out of old style cars, the economics of car insurance will do it all on it's own. And if that didn't... then yes, I would be perfectly fine with the govt regulating that people aren't allowed to drive anymore. I see it as no different then now with speed limits and seat belt laws and distracted driving laws, and all the other rules and regulations that make driving safe now. Automated driving is just the ultimate next step to take transportation into the future.

This, I open this with open arms so we can start getting stuff like TVs, consoles and PCs installed into cars.

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post #289 of 299
If this severely decreases traffic jams and vehicular related fatalities then I'm all for it.
post #290 of 299
The only way I will support this is :

1. Manually driven cars are allowed but require a special liscense that is actualy hard to get. This way the only people that will have one will know how to handle a car.

2. Every other idiot will be forced to "drive" one of these.
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