[Escapist] Steam TOS Leads to Trouble in Germany - Page 12

@Darkpriest: You did exactly what I said in that quote you would. Look at it again.

I know I did. Because some of us actually have to WORK in these environments and we need crap to WORK. I can't spend half of my work day or 3 quarters of my work day trying to get some basic function to work properly. Maybe you guys can. I can't I have to make actual money.

The games thing was just kind of a caveat to take a shot at you taking a shot at us. :-p

And the whole point is you either agree and accept the amount of freedom/rights/control lost when you have someone else make things convenient for you are you find another way. I understand your position but if you wanted to change it you have to act and that's what all the people complaining about TOS/EULAs need to understand. Someone made the work easy for you and you either find someone willing to take less "rights" away from you or go without the "easy" and find/work towards alternatives. That's markets, no corporate slave state exists except the ones that people implicitly agree to in the name of "ease"/"convenience"/etc. So don't demonize companies if you can't even come up with the pros and cons of their existence/actions (this isn't aimed at you Darkpriest).

That is not that surprising and I would assume that Valve will comply somehow as alternative is a whole world of hurt. When the EU put on its teeth companies do take note. Microsoft did comply, Intel did, Google did and I highly doubt that Valve will stick its noodle into that hornets nest, its far cheaper to find some kind of compromise. Especially considering that decision from the EU court of Justice in the Oracle case about reselling used software relating to the ownership of the licenses in the EU. For those who are not aware what is EU court of Justice - its the legal doomsday device of the EU with the power to strike down any national law within EU which violates the base treaties, there is no appeal process after this court, what the court decides that final and mandatory to all member states, organizations and idividuals of the EU (although the speed at which the member states comply can be very low as long as they make the show like they are trying to comply).

Also - you cant just stop servicing one EU country, bcos it kind of violates the EU base treaties and you have to act towards the EU as one market. Or well you can but it result in the slooooow legal process of some EU agency sending you the note about their unhappiness and if you play it hard then decade later a bill for a billion euros.
http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/court-justice/index_en.htm
Edited by Carniflex - 9/23/12 at 9:17am

Difference being that I can disagree with OCNs T&Cs and not simultaneously lose access to my Blizzard, EA, Adobe, Google, etc software/accounts.

I can disagree with my F1 2012s T&Cs if they ever changed them, without losing access to my Darksiders/TF2/Civilization/Sleeping dogs/Elder Scrolls games.

With Steam DRM type T&Cs, disagreeing with one means losing access to multiple other pieces of property that can count up into the tens/hundreds.


Sure the terms are similar with other companies agreements, but Steam type DRM agreements have much worse possible consequences.


To put it in non digital terms, I could disagree with Best Buy T&Cs but still be able to buy stuff anywhere else I choose. Walmart/Asda/Sainsburys/Amazon/Game, wherever.

Steams T&C is akin to me having an account that I use to buy stuff from the aforementioned stores, but the very minute I have a falling out with Steam, they can come into my house and take away access to all the stuff I have in my house that I bought through them.



Even if you say that with this analogy, I would only hold the license to each item I bought, the reality would be that in Steams case, I don't even own the license to each Item. I only own a singular license to a library. The library itself is what actually owns the license to my items.

So in one case I own a direct license to each item. In the other I own a license to use someone else's license...to use my item.... Not exactly the same situation and nowhere near the same amount of control regarding ownership (or removal of ownership).


The writing may be the same, but the end game scenario when poop hits the fan is a completely different experience for the user, which is why I think they are going after Valve first to set the precedent.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 9/23/12 at 5:10pm

Wrong, the laws of the US do not apply to the entire world, I know it's hard to imagine but that's the truth. China strongly protects the rights of the consumer, unlike our so called 'free' Western states (I laugh every time I hear the word free in conjunction with the West). When I buy something here it's mine and it belongs to me, soft- or hardware.
I will gladly take your pity and continue to live here, while you guys read what others, with a possible agenda, have written and keep writing. After all interwebs > first hand experience.

Lol.... and your the one claiming living in the USA (while living in China) = having no rights. Ironic.

You keep living there, and I'll keep living here in NYC and loving every minute of it. I have my rights as much as you do if not more. There's a reason so much piracy and illegal content is hosted on china... because the rules their are so "wonderful".

When you buy something in China, it's probably a fake. Also you dont own software you buy in china sorry, the ToS still states that you do not own it, even in the Chinese versions, go read it sometime.

At least the above stands true on Chinese Microsoft Windows, that ToS about owning it doesn't change. You are still buying a licence to use Windows and do not own it. THE ONLY difference is your country wont bother enforcing the law or any ToS, but that is for another topic.

The ToS/EULA is subject to local laws. If Chinese law says that you own it, you own it. It doesn't matter what the shrink-wrap license says if local laws conflict with it. Which do you think is going to hold water in a court?

In reality, there are very crap things about every geographical area. NYC (see local government debt per capita, massive income disparities) or where I live or where he lives is no different.
Also, as with anything, proper sourcing of products is fine for avoiding fakes, even in China. Department stores for example is a good bet.
And local consumer laws always override a company's one. Lots of illegal stuff is hosted on Dutch servers...

The above quoted is more of a xenophobic rant than anything else. My alias on here has nothing to do with it.
The sooner people get that 'every place sucks' instead of blind patriotism / xenophobia, the better tbh.

Please please please let me rant on how the US sucks (since the Chinese xenophobia rants are so obvious here). It'll be good. I can easily make you feel very depressed about your country.
And yes, New Zealand sucks too, despite the tourist ads you might see and Flight of the Concords / Kimbra / All Blacks / Peter Jackson / Weta Digital / Middle Earth you Americans are familiar with.

Tbh, all the things that people bag China on, occurs in the US, only China is more obvious about it.
US human rights violations and corruption within it's own borders.. tehehehehehehe..too hot of a subject to comment on here I'm afraid.

Blind patriotism / xenophobia under the disguise of 'patriotism', and the hypocrisy of it, gets to me (occurs Down Under too).
Edited by chinesekiwi - 9/24/12 at 6:24am

To clear it up, I never said NYC is the best place, I'm not a "blind patriot"

I don't even like the USA. I just like NYC and I have never had a problem with the laws here or my "freedom". That is all.

That reply was only meant for Liranan all because of: "After all interwebs > first hand experience" when at the same time he is claiming how much freedom we don't have here while living in China.

I was never going to argue that NYC > All. Every place has its ups and down in terms of laws/governments and I am aware NYC doesn't have the best laws, to each person his own. That reply was ONLY for Liranan so don't take it the wrong way.

Local law can override any Tos, but it's weird when 90% of the worlds laws are one way and a couple of countries are another.

If I'm a software developer I'm sticking to USA/EU where I can actually protect my software vs places like china. If I was making software I probably wouldn't even release my software in china legaly, though it would get there other ways no doubt.

Again i don't see anything wrong with the way the ToS are setup so as far as I am concerned I wouldn't live in China, I prefer most of the laws here. But if someone prefer's Chinas laws/goverment, they are free to live there. Just don't go around claiming that I have less freedom then you because I feel perfectly free and happy where I live and have not run into any problems or roadblocks on doing anything I want with my life, thanks.
Edited by Bboy500 - 9/24/12 at 7:21am