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New PMP-500 pump from Koolance - Page 11

post #101 of 123
It may just be the controller being pwm based instead of analog voltage control. PWM based tends to mess up RPM readout sometimes with things like led fans ect. I was able to read RPM just fine in testing the PMP500 using my variable test PSU, but that is true voltage feed rather than a PWM feed.

Sounds like a controller limitation not the pump. I recently had trouble reading RMP of led fans on the larkooler kit. Neither my crystalfontz nor my sunbeam rheosmart usin PWM control was able to reduce speeds and read rpm. only switching the rheosmart to manual analog voltage control worked. I suspect the lampron must be PWM based to handle that sort of wattage, analog would require heatsinks the size of a cpu to dissipate heat right.
Edited by Martinm210 - 2/28/13 at 6:35pm
    
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post #102 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210 View Post

It may just be the controller being pwm based instead of analog voltage control. PWM based tends to mess up RPM readout sometimes with things like led fans ect. I was able to read RPM just fine in testing the PMP500 using my variable test PSU, but that is true voltage feed rather than a PWM feed.

Sounds like a controller limitation not the pump. I recently had trouble reading RMP of led fans on the larkooler kit. Neither my crystalfontz nor my sunbeam rheosmart usin PWM control was able to reduce speeds and read rpm. only switching the rheosmart to manual analog voltage control worked. I suspect the lampron must be PWM based to handle that sort of wattage, analog would require heatsinks the size of a cpu to dissipate heat right.


Absolutely,

It's just the nature of any controller that raises its negative output line above the system ground or common level to control output voltage, that it won't allow the RPM of the device it's controlling to be read by normal monitoring devices.

With an FC9, if you're applying 8 V to a fan or pump, Measured at the wires to the load, . . . if you then measure the positive wire to system ground, you'll measure +12V, but when you measure the negative wire to system ground, you'll measure +4V.

The tach signal is generated from contact closure, (normally optical or magnetic) between the tach wire and the negative power wire.

Common RPM monitoring devices count pulses that drop below about 1.25V, referenced to the sytem ground, (2 per revolution) to derive an rpm reading.

That's why as long as the controller is at max speed, (close to 12V to the load) where it holds the negative output within about a volt or so of system ground, the rpm reads fine, but as soon as the negative output is more than about 1.5V above the system ground, (about 10.5V to the load) you loose the ability to read the rpm.

@Martin,
If you'd like, I'll make you one of these translator boards to see if it helps you get rpm readings with test units that don't seem to behave as expected.


Darlene
post #103 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabus Norran View Post

So... if I understand what you're saying:

I could manually adjust the pump speed but no speed controller would be able to tell?

I plan on manually tuning the pumps for silence, and not giving control of the RPM's to anything really.

Or did I just miss the point rolleyes.gif



That's exactly right.

All the controller / RPM displays I've tried, just blanked or flashed zeroes after reducing the speed from max.


That's what made me investigate to see why, and found the FC9 is basically a "positive ground" controller.

The little circuit boards are quad comparator circuits that use an open collector output and pull to system ground whenever the tach signal input goes below about 10.5V, which translates to 1.5V to the fan, or pump, so it works over the full usable range of control.

Normal RPM displays need to see the tach signal drop below about 1.25V to count as a pulse.

It's really pretty well explained in the cooling module log, as that's when i made the first one, and based on that success, made one for the switch 810 build.


Darlene

Interesting.
My FC5 V2 can read tach wires from pumps just fine,I have had a D5 on it for well over a year with no issues.

Seems Lamptron like to differ designs between controllers rather than a one policy design brief.
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post #104 of 123
So the Lamptron 9 uses a different technology to control fans? It doesn't use power modulation?
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post #105 of 123
Just got them in yesterday and hooked up my loop for an external test.

They are soooooo noisy lol smile.gif

I had factored this in though and have a sound-proofed pumping chamber I designed for the bottom of my case. I still want to use 2 for redundancy.


EDIT:

One interesting thing that I though I would note, I don't know too much about wiring and voltages etc... but I've never seen this before (first WC build)


The pump has a mobo header with a single wire, and then standard malex with 2 wires.

So my interpretation is:

Power supplied by molex, control provided by mobo header.

But if the Lamptron FC9 can't read any info from the pump, should I re-wire the mobo header with all three wires from the pump, in order to route everything through the controller? I assumed this is what I would have to do upon receiving the pump but I wanted to get some thoughts on it.

As it sits right now, the lamptron does nothing. Even with the mobo header hooked up and the lamptron controller scaled all the way down the pump draws full power from molex.

To me that means I need to wire everything through the mobo header.

Am I kinda sorta right?

Probably going to try it anyway unless I get an OMG NO STOP by about 6PM tonight.
Edited by Zabus Norran - 3/5/13 at 10:07am
post #106 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginger_nuts View Post

Do your self a favour, sell one of the pumps.

These pumps are monsters. One is more then enough.

Also they are rather noisy, even when running at 7v.

Proper sound insulation would help a ton, but the frequency they make is rather high pitched.


Yeah I'm keeping them both, but after running just one of them I can tell it will take some work to silence these. I have 2" studio foam and the entire lower portion of my 800D to work with though. My plan is to not hear them at all. Cooling is my main concern as I'm confidant I can silence them, It might come down to some minor tradeoffs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post

That's exactly right.

All the controller / RPM displays I've tried, just blanked or flashed zeroes after reducing the speed from max.


That's what made me investigate to see why, and found the FC9 is basically a "positive ground" controller.

The little circuit boards are quad comparator circuits that use an open collector output and pull to system ground whenever the tach signal input goes below about 10.5V, which translates to 1.5V to the fan, or pump, so it works over the full usable range of control.

Normal RPM displays need to see the tach signal drop below about 1.25V to count as a pulse.

It's really pretty well explained in the cooling module log, as that's when i made the first one, and based on that success, made one for the switch 810 build.


Darlene

Thanks for the reply, I tried a few searches and also checked the menu's but I'm a noob to this site. Would you point me in the right direction to the cooling module log?
post #107 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabus Norran View Post

Yeah I'm keeping them both, but after running just one of them I can tell it will take some work to silence these. I have 2" studio foam and the entire lower portion of my 800D to work with though. My plan is to not hear them at all. Cooling is my main concern as I'm confidant I can silence them, It might come down to some minor tradeoffs.
Thanks for the reply, I tried a few searches and also checked the menu's but I'm a noob to this site. Would you point me in the right direction to the cooling module log?


It's at the bottom of my signature:


IT Diva's * * * Diva Deluxe, Overkill Extreme, External Cooling Module * * * build log


I would not put the power wires from the molex connector into a 4 pin fan connector and plug them onto your mobo.

Big risk that the pump could need more current than the mobo is rated to supply and damage the mobo.

The molex connector is made to plug up to the PSU for 12V power. You made that assumption correctly.

The single wire to the fan header is just a tach signal, not a control line. That pump does not have PWM speed control.

The wire that goes to the fan connector plugs onto the mobo's CPU fan header so that the mobo has a rpm reading for the "cpu fan", since most will at least beep at you, if not shut down, if it's not present or too low.


If you want to see how the FC9 works with the new pump;

Plug any fan into the mobo CPU fan header to satisfy the mobo's need to "see" a cpu fan

make / buy an adapter to connect the pumps 4 pin molex to the FC9's 3 pin fan output, and plug the FC9's molex into the PSU.

The FC9 should run two of those pumps with no issues, as long as you keep them 1 pump per channel.

Darlene
Edited by IT Diva - 3/5/13 at 3:40pm
post #108 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post


If you want to see how the FC9 works with the new pump;

Plug any fan into the mobo CPU fan header to satisfy the mobo's need to "see" a cpu fan

make / buy an adapter to connect the pumps 4 pin molex to the FC9's 3 pin fan output, and plug the FC9's molex into the PSU.

The FC9 should run two of those pumps with no issues, as long as you keep them 1 pump per channel.

Darlene

I wasn't very clear in my last two posts :/

That is what I was referring to, only you succinctly reduced it to a single sentence.

I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I have planty of molex cables sitting around, I'm going to try to wire the pump in to the 3 pin header on the controller, and the controller to the PSU.
post #109 of 123
Just got the pump hooked up to the FC9, it works beautifully.

i just cut all three wires off from the pump and re-wired them on to a 3-pin connector, able to change the speed of the pump all the way down to about 40% of what the controller is capable of, it cuts the sound down to about 1/3 of where it was on molex.

Thanks for all your help guys.
post #110 of 123
great info in this thread wink.gif
i have the lamptron FC9 on the way for my noisy pmp-500. love the pump (running single loop: OC'ed 3930k/7970, plus chipset and vrm block through phobya 1080), and also adding 2x ap-30 for case fans. sounds like the lamptron will be the right controller for the lot
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