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[Anandtech] AMD A10-5800K & A8-5600K Review: Trinity on the Desktop, Part 1 - Page 12

post #111 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenixlight View Post

Hmm it looks like they didn't say what CPU and system was used for the GT640 results, someone didn't do their job properly.

I bet they used their reference system, which IIRC, was a 2600k?

By the way, amazing results we got there. Now gimme a decent mITX board, and my portable desktop will be on rails!
   
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post #112 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

It's practically wiped out the sub$100 graphics card market singlehandedly...How is that not impressive? Literally, there's no reason to get a sub GT640 level graphics card now.

Only OEMs had GT 610, 620, 630, 545, 530, 520 anyhow.

Typically the i7 machines from HP HPE series or Dell XPS series have HD 7570/HD 7670/ GT 640.

It's a win for AMD if they pull this off. People with Pentiums/ i3s aren't really pushing their PCs that hard usually, so improved integrated graphics (particularly on laptops) will be a BIG selling point.

Definitely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Gee, what ever happened to benchmarks, reviews, release date, etc at launch, not before? rolleyes.gif

AMD is very sneaky. Highlight its strengths, hide its weaknesses. This might as well have been a Graphics Card review. lol.
Quote:
As we said before, what AMD is doing here is quasi-clever, taking an existing form—the "limited product preview"—hollowing it out, and using it in an innovative fashion in order to achieve a previously unheard of measure of control over reviewers. In the past, "previews" have been short and breezy, and they've traditionally included a very small amount of test data, if any. Quite often, those results are provided directly by the product's manufacturer and are understood to be preliminary.

By contrast, well, look at the articles out there today. They sure look like reviews, and some are labeled as such.

AMD has "allowed" wide leeway in its first-stage release of information to report nearly all product information and a broad set of independently obtained test data in areas where its product is strong, such as integrated graphics. Yet reporting the independently obtained results of CPU-focused benchmarks must wait until the second stage, when the initial buzz surrounding the product has worn off.

By exercising this sort of control over the release of independent test data, AMD gets to highlight its product's strengths and downplay its weaknesses. Or, as the firm put it, "The goal was to provide an opportunity to talk about the real-world experience with the product and also highlight the performance in key applications where we are targeting the product." At least they're being upfront about it.

Trouble is, companies whose products are being reviewed do not and should not get this sort of control over the release of independent review data. Reviews are not advertising and they are not marketing vehicles; they are independent evaluations of products that should keep the consumer's interests paramount. Blurring the fine line between "preview" and "review" may create confusion in some quarters, but when the dust settles, the principle at stake isn't difficult to spot: it's editorial independence.

The CPU side will definitely be weaker than Intel, except hopefully it won't end up being wrongly accused of being horrible at everything like Bulldozer was. (The FX-4*** series are great chips and compete well with the i3s, these Trinity chips will compete really well with them.)

As for hating on AMD for doing it..It's marketing, do you expect them to pre-release data showing their chips being slower? Intel would do the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nintendo Maniac 64 View Post

What's so sneaky about it? The product hasn't even launched yet and is still under NDA.

They're hiding their weakness (CPU speed) and showcasing their strength (GPU speed and GPGPU).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Just because I can understand AMD's motivation doesn't make it right. The reviewers shouldn't play ball with these kind of tactics as it will encourage this behavior going forward...

To be fair, Anand did pretty much fully say that AMD is doing this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Just because I can understand AMD's motivation doesn't make it right. The reviewers shouldn't play ball with these kind of tactics as it will encourage this behavior going forward...

It doesn't really bother me to be honest. Its a preview. We all know that the APU focuses on graphics performance - and that is what the benchmarks showed. When the part is released, full benchmarks will follow. I think it's pretty obvious that on CPU intensive tasks that the ivy bridge will win hands down - but AMD's argument is that graphics performance is the new focus. Are they correct? Maybe - certainly, CPU IPC has been less of a focus in recent years even for intel and the new focus is pushing more pixels. Even haswell will be only a minor IPC improvement over ivy bridge, yet will have a tremendous graphics performance boost for mobile.

Basically, the Trinity stomps the HD4000 in graphics performance. 2010rig is also pretty adamant about trashing AMD at any and every opportunity, sorry not trash talking but its the truth. Anyway, full benchmarks will come in the following weeks, but this is a graphics performance preview. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Truth be told, apart from enthusiasts like us, battery life is by far the most important metric between CPUs these days, most users won't tell the difference between an FX-4100 and a 3960K.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Last year = Benchmarks at Launch. Why? Because they had nothing to boast.

That's just a damned lie, Bulldozer was a disappointment until they lowered the price, yes, but Llano and Bobcat? Bobcat was beating the Atom nearly everywhere and Llano reshaped the IGP forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Just because I can understand AMD's motivation doesn't make it right. The reviewers shouldn't play ball with these kind of tactics as it will encourage this behavior going forward...

The reviewer here had a choice: either preview iGPU performance only, or don't put out a review until NDA lifts. The reviewer chose to preview iGPU performance instead of doing nothing and waiting for NDA to lift.

Not to mention, the reviewer made it completely clear multiple times that it was not a full-scale review. Besides, anyone who really cares about hardware performance will be waiting to read the full reviews anyways, from multiple sources.

It's smart marketing though, 90% of the people who read reviews (Even on OCN, etc) just look at the pwetty graphs without actually reading the words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S.M. View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmac73 View Post

I really don't see what AMD has to hide given the 5800K's price point. The fact that it overclocks to 4.5ghz and beyond daily, puts it on par, and ahead of it's competition (i3).
And that you would have to spend an additional $100 on a discrete GPU to have an equal performing system.

Definitely true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nintendo Maniac 64 View Post

There's also those people out there that think the CPU is everything and then wonder why their 2500k with HD2000 plays Minecraft so poorly... at least this style of review could possibly help prevent that.

Note I said possibly, even if it's only a 0.0000001% chance. tongue.gif

Minecraft does need a great CPU, but usually after you already have a great GPU, I've got a pretty hard CPU bottleneck with OptiFine, I can go from 0x AA to 16x AA without any FPS drop at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuell View Post

With iGPU's getting so good, wonder when we'll have switchable graphics on desktop to save some power and lower noise...

We already do, its called Virtu MVP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmac73 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

AMD learned from the mistake of hoping overclocking would save its ass with Tahiti vs Kepler. Argue about how it's deceptive all you want, it's better for their marketing. The CPU trades blows with an i3 at stock whereas the GPU destroys anything Intel could dream of.
That said I don't see many Intel reviews touting the IGP.

Intel is modest with their GPUs. They are improving and only getting better. Haswell's GPU is going to be interesting.

Definitely, AMD has the lead and will for Haswell though, all they literally need to do is increase their RAM bandwidth to get a semi-decent performance increase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuell View Post

With iGPU's getting so good, wonder when we'll have switchable graphics on desktop to save some power and lower noise...

Lucid Virtu does this with IB and SB, and I think it's going to be expanded to Trinity as well. Problem is, Lucid Virtu is still buggy, and unless you get a GPU that actually completely shuts itself down (only AMD's 7xxx cards do this currently), it's almost pointless.

Never seen any bugs with the 3570k and HD7850 combo I've tested it on?

It was a damn PITA to get working fully though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossie2000 View Post

Quote:
Years of negative reviews because of poor performing products? Seems warranted. AMD asking reviewers to only show the GPU side of things is just them admitting that the CPU side of their APU isn't impressive. They're just trying to fool people and that should never be accepted as "right"

Llano's CPU performance was not bad at all.Trinity will be better and will destroy Llano at multi-fredded apps. What i wound like to see thow is AMD broaden their CF ability to atleast 7850/7870's.That would post a major problem towards Nvidia. thumb.gif

That would be nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossie2000 View Post

Quote:
Years of negative reviews because of poor performing products? Seems warranted. AMD asking reviewers to only show the GPU side of things is just them admitting that the CPU side of their APU isn't impressive. They're just trying to fool people and that should never be accepted as "right"

Llano's CPU performance was not bad at all.Trinity will be better and will destroy Llano at multi-fredded apps. What i wound like to see thow is AMD broaden their CF ability to atleast 7850/7870's.That would post a major problem towards Nvidia. thumb.gif

Trinity will be lucky to match Llano in multithreaded. The Bulldozer architecture doesn't scale well at all because of the shared nature. Trinity scales as if it had 3 cores.

Except per core performance is higher, as it is BD beats Llano when both are OCed and tends to come up to 4.2Ghz Phenom II level when it's around 5Ghz or so iirc, Trinity is a bit faster per clock and should hit similar clock speeds maybe a bit lower.

Add in the fact Piledriver is 15% average faster than BD in multithreaded..Yeah, it's going to destroy Llano in Multithreaded applications I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentKilla78 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

AMD learned from the mistake of hoping overclocking would save its ass with Tahiti vs Kepler.

Sorry, but what? Tahiti beats or equals Kepler when both are overclocked... I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

How many people here think that Kepler is faster than Tahiti despite Tahiti gaining more from its OC and OCing higher to boot? wink.gif
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post #113 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

That's just a damned lie, Bulldozer was a disappointment until they lowered the price, yes, but Llano and Bobcat? Bobcat was beating the Atom nearly everywhere and Llano reshaped the IGP forever.

How is it a lie? I'm talking about AMD's stance last year on NOT releasing Bulldozer benchmarks.





Gee, it turns out that a lot of benchmarks released WERE representative. rolleyes.gif

Plus, have you forgotten this infamous thread?
http://www.overclock.net/t/1107646/bulldozer-pre-launch-faq/0_50
Quote:
Originally Posted by JF-AMD
Q. I saw a benchmark on xyz website. Is that how bulldozer will perform?A. No. Nothing posted before launch will be representative of actual performance. To get actual performance, you need:

Final production silicon
Final processor microcode
Final system BIOS
Final OS optimizaitons
Final drivers
An app compiled with the latest flags
A person who understands the app and configures the test properly

Without these things (and there are probably more), you cannot get an accurate benchmark. Any extrapolation of a crappy benchmark gives you a crappy estimate of actual performance. Period.

Oh, and many of the benchmarks that you see were probably not run, those are just charts made in excel. It's really easy to make a chart in excel - what do you want, bulldozer faster by 3716%? Intel faster by 293%? Sure, I can do either one in 10 seconds. Why are you arguing about benchmarks that probably aren't real?

Q. When are you launching? Why don't you release the date?

A. When we launch, we launch. I will not comment on dates, I will not comment on schedules. We do not release dates prior to launch, at most we give quarter granularity. Giving the date out will stall demand. We have a business to run. While you might think that it will make your life easier to not have to guess, the reality is that we have a business to run and the minute you let the date out, sales stall. For everything. The cost impact of announcing the launch date is always bigger and drives these decisions.

Q. What are the prices?
A. Look at the above question and you have your answer.

Q. Why don't you release benchmarks before launch? You could steal so much business away from the other guy?
A. Again, releasing benchmarks before launch will simply stall sales. Believe me, if the competition thinks they are out of position, will they just sit back and say "oh well" or will they react? Handing them benchmarks is simply giving them time to form a strategy. I am not in the business of helping them, they are on their own on this one.

Q. Will bulldozer be faster than....?
A. I don't need to finish the question, please read above.

So, again, my simple point is that AMD will change its policies accordingly to suit them best.

In the BD Blog is Live I provided plenty of evidence where AMD released benchmarks PRIOR to launch on numerous occasions, but JF-AMD was adamant that they NEVER released benchmarks prior to launch. It was quite frankly, annoying.

A year later, here we are, AMD releasing benchmarks PRIOR to launch ( in this case, controlled benchmarks )
Edited by 2010rig - 9/28/12 at 8:16am
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post #114 of 192


thinking.gif
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post #115 of 192
i dont know if its been mentioned but which cards are these chips going to be able to hybrid crossfire with? are we going to have to wait for an 8000 series or will one of the 7000 series do it? ive got a mini ITX system with a G530 celeron and a 7750 single slot card that plays BF3 decently well at 1680x1050 and medium settings while making no noise or heat, i can only imagine this chip with something in the 7750 territory crossfired would be a great low noise/power/heat system i could use for casual gaming on hot summer days instead of my furnace i have now and still play some higher end games decently.
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post #116 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboMach1 View Post

i dont know if its been mentioned but which cards are these chips going to be able to hybrid crossfire with? are we going to have to wait for an 8000 series or will one of the 7000 series do it? ive got a mini ITX system with a G530 celeron and a 7750 single slot card that plays BF3 decently well at 1680x1050 and medium settings while making no noise or heat, i can only imagine this chip with something in the 7750 territory crossfired would be a great low noise/power/heat system i could use for casual gaming on hot summer days instead of my furnace i have now and still play some higher end games decently.

Right now, the cards are listed as the HD64XX, HD65XX, and HD66XX. AMD may release updated versions of these cards to coincide with the release of the new APU.
post #117 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Snip

Of course they lie, it's called marketing and every company does it, I wasn't calling you a liar about the marketing, just the "nothing to boast", they did have stuff to boast last year even if it wasn't Bulldozer, if you specifically said Bulldozer (Now I get that you did only mean that) then yes, what you said is true, but they definitely had Llano and Bobcat to boast about last year.
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post #118 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Of course they lie, it's called marketing and every company does it, I wasn't calling you a liar about the marketing, just the "nothing to boast", they did have stuff to boast last year even if it wasn't Bulldozer, if you specifically said Bulldozer (Now I get that you did only mean that) then yes, what you said is true, but they definitely had Llano and Bobcat to boast about last year.

Yep, and like I pointed out last year, AMD had no problems releasing Llano performance well ahead of time. Why? They had something to boast.
http://www.overclock.net/t/791495/the-bulldozer-blog-is-live/1350_50#post_13852503

With Bulldozer, well, we know they had nothing to boast there, hence the whole "Benchmarks at Launch" stance.

My issue has always been the inconsistencies and lies we were fed throughout the Bulldozer launch. AMD changes its stance often, and that's fine, just don't act like this has ALWAYS been your stance.
Edited by 2010rig - 9/28/12 at 11:46am
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post #119 of 192
While I agree wholeheartedly with you about BD at some point you just gotta give it up. You were 100% right about it last year when all the AMD fanboys were still saying that BD will own and that no benchmarks could be trusted until AMD released them. That being said, BD is old news now and its kinda beating a dead horse at this point...
post #120 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

While I agree wholeheartedly with you about BD at some point you just gotta give it up. You were 100% right about it last year when all the AMD fanboys were still saying that BD will own and that no benchmarks could be trusted until AMD released them. That being said, BD is old news now and its kinda beating a dead horse at this point...

NEVER!

I won't let it go until JF-AMD gets fired! Oh wait... tongue.gif

I agree, it's beating a dead horse at this point, just surprised people still pass mis-information to this day, despite everything we know, oh well I guess. ( Not talking about Brutuz, just in general )
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2010rig
(14 items)
 
Galaxy S3
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
X5660 @ 4.5  ASUS P6X58D-E 980TI? 12GB OCZ Platinum - 7-7-7-21 
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1 80GB SSD x25m - 3TB F3 + F4 NH-D14 Windows 7 Ultimate LG 47LH55 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Natural Wireless Keyboard Corsair 750HX CM 690 II Advanced MX 518 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Snapdragon S4 Dual core 1500mhz Adreno 225 Samsung 2GB 16GB Onboard Flash 
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