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[Inquirer] AMD sticks with Socket AM3+ for Steamroller, FM2 to get three years - Page 17

post #161 of 216
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Originally Posted by Booty Warrior View Post

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Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post


Why the hell would you compare a synthetic benchmark when there's plenty of results from real world applications there? I'm not going to get a graphics card because 3DMark said it's better, I'm going to look at real world results..
I'd absolutely agree that real world benchmarks take precedence over synthetics, but that doesn't make synthetics useless either. If nothing else they can show potential strengths and weaknesses depending on the application.

Take Heaven for instance. When it was released it showed the stark contrast in tessellation power between previous gen AMD and Nvidia cards. At the time, no games used tess at that level, so the benchmark was considered largely irrelevant. Then Crysis 2 launched.

That works in theory, except even when you look at older benchmarks versus the games they're most similar to, results show differences. There's no point in comparing them, you're better off taking an educated guess as to what games are using and simply reading up on the GPU architecture, I didn't need Heaven to tell me AMD was weaker at tessellation, it was obvious simply because they dedicated a lot less of the GPU to it, benchmarks haven't shown realistic results compared to games for a long time now.
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Originally Posted by Booty Warrior View Post

Quote:
If you're running a 3D monitor, why are you considering an AMD CPU? You're obviously mainly into gaming, in which case the i5 3570k is the better choice, if you do stuff other than gaming or game at 60Hz then AMD is practically equal to Intel until you hit above the $250 mark, there's just a tonne of people who will read a review, look at the coloured graphs (Sometimes not even noticing it's a lower is better result) and claim AMD is worse when they're competing with Intel pretty well.

laughingsmiley.gif Give people a little credit here. Even if some people completely misinterpret the results, I'd rather have more information available than less when making any hardware-based decision.

I try to give people a lot of credit, but I've seen this happen a lot on here and other forums, and quite honestly, you only have to look at the multi-threaded results and it's easy to tell that AMD is quite a bit slower core for core still. (Otherwise the FX-8350 would beat a 3770k in every result because CMT is generally more efficient than HT in terms of pure performance)

There's still zero point in comparing single-threaded POVRay or Cinebench stuff, for example, as the multi-threaded version is right there; if you do something single-threaded then get a comparison of that specific program. (In a perfect world, we'd already have results)
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Originally Posted by Booty Warrior View Post

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IPC has zero to do with core count..AMD gets ahead because they have more cores than Intel at the same price point, and if you're doing something that truly does max out your CPU chances are it's going to be using all 8 cores anyway. There's no point in comparing single-threaded performance when you're trying to do a real-world comparison simply because why the hell would I run (For example) POVRay in single-threaded mode when I've got 7 more cores sitting there doing nothing?

They include results like that because the overwhelming majority of software is still unoptimized for using 4+ threads. And in those situations Intel's IPC advantage absolutely matters. With that in mind, a core to core comparison makes quite a bit of sense.

It's not as if they exclude the multi-threaded results anyway, they just include single-thread along side them to give the full picture. I don't see the issue.

No, it isn't. For the most part CPU intensive programs (By that I mean that you would actually notice the difference between CPUs, unlike in gaming) easily use 8 threads or are scaled easily. (eg. LAME doesn't use more than 1 core, but generally it's easy to set it up to use 8 instances of it at once, so while the benchmark would show a win for Intel, AMD would win overall because it can do double the songs with very little single-threaded performance loss at the same time)

I can see why you'd want to see them, but I was referring to someone saying that "Intel wins the majority of benchmarks" who clearly hadn't taken out results irrelevant to the real world...I can understand comparing it to get a single-threaded performance idea but when you see someone doing a general thing like that? Exactly my point before.
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Originally Posted by Booty Warrior View Post

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Originally Posted by Usario View Post

How is filtering useless, irrelevant benchmarks like sysmark and games tested at 1024x768 with a GTX 280 pulling 200fps "handicapping" the 3570k? Oh, my bad, the i5 is only better if you obsess over graphs showing synthetic performance instead of actually using your computer.
You criticize them for their test suite while advocating your own biased choices of what should count and what shouldn't. You literally just said "throw out a bunch of tests where the i5 wins and they're equal!"

The 200+fps results, much like the synthetic benchmarks may not seem practical but they do show potential performance. If you're arguing the 8350 is competitive I would think you'd want to keep them considering they were closer than the more "real world" results from DoW/SC2/WoW.

The i5 was 20% faster in DoW2, 38% faster in WoW and 41% faster in Starcraft 2 (where the 8350 was under 60fps). For someone interested in gaming that is relevant information.

You know, I wonder where they get differences that big in gaming, I see a difference between my FX-4170 and my girlfriends i5 3570k in gaming but certainly not that big. It's also unnoticeable and completely irrelevant as I've mentioned.
    
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post #162 of 216
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Originally Posted by Booty Warrior View Post

You criticize them for their test suite while advocating your own biased choices of what should count and what shouldn't. You literally just said "throw out a bunch of tests where the i5 wins and they're equal!"

The 200+fps results, much like the synthetic benchmarks may not seem practical but they do show potential performance. If you're arguing the 8350 is competitive I would think you'd want to keep them considering they were closer than the more "real world" results from DoW/SC2/WoW.

The i5 was 20% faster in DoW2, 38% faster in WoW and 41% faster in Starcraft 2 (where the 8350 was under 60fps). For someone interested in gaming that is relevant information.

Throw out a couple of IRRELEVANT tests and they're equal. SYSMark is quite possibly the most useless benchmark ever written. A benchmark like Cinebench, on the other hand, represents an actual real-world workload and is relevant.

Gaming is one workload. It's kind of surprising how many people say that AMD sucks because of gaming performance. Does Intel suck because of their lackluster performance in encryption and compression? It's much more noticeable there than gaming too.

The 8350 was under 60fps in SC2 with a GTX 280... yawn. SC2 is also a ridiculous outlier; I bet I can find one benchmark where an 8350 tops a 3960X but that really means nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Edited by Usario - 12/14/12 at 8:32pm
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post #163 of 216
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Originally Posted by Usario View Post

Gaming is one workload. It's kind of surprising how many people say that AMD sucks because of gaming performance. Does Intel suck because of their lackluster performance in encryption and compression? It's much more noticeable there than gaming too.

Who encrypts and compresses all day long?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Anandtech tests with a 280, so people can easily compare results with all their other processors they've tested, and easily get side by side comparisons.

About CPU's "aging better", just look at what SoloCamo wrote.

He upgraded from an 8120 to the 8350, and if Steamroller turns out to be good, he'll probably upgrade to that too.

My point is, by the time 8 core processors are relevant for gaming, there'll be other faster processors that people will upgrade to or buy instead.
Edited by 2010rig - 12/14/12 at 9:24pm
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post #164 of 216
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Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

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Originally Posted by Usario View Post

Gaming is one workload. It's kind of surprising how many people say that AMD sucks because of gaming performance. Does Intel suck because of their lackluster performance in encryption and compression? It's much more noticeable there than gaming too.

Who encrypts and compresses all day long?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Anandtech tests with a 280, so people can easily compare results with all their other processors they've tested, and easily get side by side comparisons.

A lot of people, actually, there's plenty of reason to run all your HDDs with encryption. As for compression, I do quite a bit of it.

What about encoding? AMD beats Intel in the same price range at that, too. AMD is faster in typical CPU intensive loads, Intel is faster in a handful of them. Between the two you're generally talking a few seconds difference..You literally cannot go wrong with either chip, I don't get why SB/IB owners don't realize this.
    
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post #165 of 216
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Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

A lot of people, actually, there's plenty of reason to run all your HDDs with encryption. As for compression, I do quite a bit of it.
What about encoding? AMD beats Intel in the same price range at that, too. AMD is faster in typical CPU intensive loads, Intel is faster in a handful of them. Between the two you're generally talking a few seconds difference..You literally cannot go wrong with either chip, I don't get why SB/IB owners don't realize this.

I don't encrypt or compress my HDD's at all, so to me, that is pretty irrelevant.

An 8350 beats a 3570K at encoding? I bet those 4 extra cores have nothing to do with it. wink.gif

I'll be honest, if I was building a rig today, it would be very hard for me to overlook the 8350, and I would seriously consider it. But that Power Consumption is kinda drastic, and hasn't changed much over original BD.





Over the long haul, I would still go with a 3570K or I'd look for a used 2600K for $250, or I'd highly consider a 3820 for its IB-E upgrade path.

When AMD gets that Power Consumption down to Intel levels, then it will be a better all around competitor.

I can't wait for SR to hit the scene, that's a much more exciting chip I'm looking forward to.

THAT will be a TRUE 8 core chip, but 2014 is so far away, Haswell and IB-E will be out by then.

I really want to see AMD be all around competitive, instead of selective scenarios.
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post #166 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

A lot of people, actually, there's plenty of reason to run all your HDDs with encryption. As for compression, I do quite a bit of it.
What about encoding? AMD beats Intel in the same price range at that, too. AMD is faster in typical CPU intensive loads, Intel is faster in a handful of them. Between the two you're generally talking a few seconds difference..You literally cannot go wrong with either chip, I don't get why SB/IB owners don't realize this.

I don't encrypt or compress my HDD's at all, so to me, that is pretty irrelevant.

An 8350 beats a 3570K at encoding? I bet those 4 extra cores have nothing to do with it. wink.gif

I'll be honest, if I was building a rig today, it would be very hard for me to overlook the 8350, and I would seriously consider it. But that Power Consumption is kinda drastic, and hasn't changed much over original BD.

[/IMG ALT=""]http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/1175885/width/500/height/1000[/IMG]

[/IMG ALT=""]http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/1175882/width/500/height/1000[/IMG]

Over the long haul, I would still go with a 3570K or I'd look for a used 2600K for $250, or I'd highly consider a 3820 for its IB-E upgrade path.

When AMD gets that Power Consumption down to Intel levels, then it will be a better all around competitor.

I can't wait for SR to hit the scene, that's a much more exciting chip I'm looking forward to.

THAT will be a TRUE 8 core chip, but 2014 is so far away, Haswell and IB-E will be out by then.

I really want to see AMD be all around competitive, instead of selective scenarios.

Why does the core count matter? They cost the same.

Power consumption is the only negative but when you're talking what could be a very tiny amount it doesn't matter for most people. If we're talking about our personal uses then we'll be arguing until the cows come home.

And SR will compete with Haswell, remember that single-threaded performance increases (usually) translate into multithreaded performance increases too, if anything it'll at least be in the same boat as PD where it's faster for CPU intensive stuff but slower for single-threaded stuff. Intel's also a competitor in selective scenarios too, gaming isn't exactly big and apart from that there's no time you get a significant difference, even in the P4 days Intel was the chip to get for video encoding despite being slower than the A64 at everything else.
    
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post #167 of 216
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Originally Posted by Usario View Post

The 8350 was under 60fps in SC2 with a GTX 280... yawn. SC2 is also a ridiculous outlier; I bet I can find one benchmark where an 8350 tops a 3960X but that really means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

In all fairness, SC2 is a very popular game, and one of the few where CPU matters a lot more than GPU past a certain point.

SC2 can always be fluid on a GTX 280 at acceptable details, it cannot always be fluid on a lower end CPU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Who encrypts and compresses all day long?

There are five fully encrypted drives attached to my primary system, and at least one of them is in use at almost any given time.

I also run disk compression on my storage drives as it increases effective performance and useful capacity slightly. The overhead for the compression is negligible with a decent CPU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

About CPU's "aging better", just look at what SoloCamo wrote.
He upgraded from an 8120 to the 8350, and if Steamroller turns out to be good, he'll probably upgrade to that too.
My point is, by the time 8 core processors are relevant for gaming, there'll be other faster processors that people will upgrade to or buy instead.

I usually buy 3-4 processors a year. However, I'm still using my two year old i7 970, and it's still going to be relevant a year from now. Indeed, it's still my second fastest overall CPU, despite the fact that I have four mid-high end CPUs that are newer.

I'll probably still be using my FX-8150 as well, but more because I lack a compelling reason to dump 200 dollars on a Vishera or Steamroller when I have multiple Intel hex cores (it was more of an experiment in the first place). Also, at this point the threadedness of apps is growing faster than the need for fast single threads, so if it works now, it will probably work next year.

An FX-8350 will endure even more easily, at least from a long term relative value perspective. Certainly there are areas where it's not particularly good, but there are very few areas it's not at least usable in, and for at least the next year or two, those areas will shrink, not grow.

And 8 logical cores already have relevance in some games. They've always had relevance if you multitask.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Why does the core count matter? They cost the same.
Power consumption is the only negative but when you're talking what could be a very tiny amount it doesn't matter for most people. If we're talking about our personal uses then we'll be arguing until the cows come home.
And SR will compete with Haswell, remember that single-threaded performance increases (usually) translate into multithreaded performance increases too, if anything it'll at least be in the same boat as PD where it's faster for CPU intensive stuff but slower for single-threaded stuff. Intel's also a competitor in selective scenarios too, gaming isn't exactly big and apart from that there's no time you get a significant difference, even in the P4 days Intel was the chip to get for video encoding despite being slower than the A64 at everything else.

I agree with most of this.

However, power consumption translates directly into board/VRM wear in many cases, and if I were to, say run F@H 24/7 on my mid range AM3+ board with my FX-8150 in it, I would expect the system to go up in flames within a year. The chip has power consumption that matches my i7 970, or 3930k, but not the kind of performance that could ever justify dropping 250-400 dollars on a board like I have with the Intel parts. Thus while power consumption isn't really relevant on my Intel setups, outside of a few bucks of electricity costs, it probably is relevant on my FX-8150 + 110 dollar motherboard combo.

Even if you translate this down to Intel parts that cost exactly the same and are of roughly the same quality, Intel has the edge here because a 3570k or 2600k are pulling much less current through the same quality VRM than an FX of similar performance will.

This probably isn't a huge deal for most people as most systems are not loaded all the time, but enough are that I think it needs to be taken into consideration.
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post #168 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

A lot of people, actually, there's plenty of reason to run all your HDDs with encryption. As for compression, I do quite a bit of it.
What about encoding? AMD beats Intel in the same price range at that, too. AMD is faster in typical CPU intensive loads, Intel is faster in a handful of them. Between the two you're generally talking a few seconds difference..You literally cannot go wrong with either chip, I don't get why SB/IB owners don't realize this.

I don't encrypt or compress my HDD's at all, so to me, that is pretty irrelevant.

An 8350 beats a 3570K at encoding? I bet those 4 extra cores have nothing to do with it. wink.gif

I'll be honest, if I was building a rig today, it would be very hard for me to overlook the 8350, and I would seriously consider it. But that Power Consumption is kinda drastic, and hasn't changed much over original BD.





Over the long haul, I would still go with a 3570K or I'd look for a used 2600K for $250, or I'd highly consider a 3820 for its IB-E upgrade path.

When AMD gets that Power Consumption down to Intel levels, then it will be a better all around competitor.

I can't wait for SR to hit the scene, that's a much more exciting chip I'm looking forward to.

THAT will be a TRUE 8 core chip, but 2014 is so far away, Haswell and IB-E will be out by then.

I really want to see AMD be all around competitive, instead of selective scenarios.

The power consumption there isn't as high as it appears to be. The 8350 finishes the task considerably quicker, so while it may use ~100W more than the 3570k while the workload is running the difference is smaller in reality. I believe this is referred to ask "task energy" by some
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post #169 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

The power consumption there isn't as high as it appears to be. The 8350 finishes the task considerably quicker, so while it may use ~100W more than the 3570k while the workload is running the difference is smaller in reality. I believe this is referred to ask "task energy" by some

How is it not as high, when it's consuming somewhere in between 1.5x to 2x over Intel's options?

If you're folding, that Power Consumption WILL make a difference over the long haul. I know when I was folding 24/7, I saw a HUGE spike in my Hydro bill.

Seeing that I have an option to pick a more power efficient chip, that performs on par or better overall, why would I pick the more power hungry option? Plus, when overclocked, that 8350 gets a HUGE win in Power Consumption ( If Higher was better tongue.gif )


Edited by 2010rig - 12/15/12 at 12:16pm
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post #170 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

The power consumption there isn't as high as it appears to be. The 8350 finishes the task considerably quicker, so while it may use ~100W more than the 3570k while the workload is running the difference is smaller in reality. I believe this is referred to ask "task energy" by some
power-plot.gif
x264-power-total-energy.gif
x264-power-task-energy.gif

http://techreport.com/review/23750/amd-fx-8350-processor-reviewed/4

It's a good step forward, but I just don't see AMD FX being recommendable except for some interesting niches. It's important to note how APUs stack up though. I find the idea that "APUs bad, CPUs good" to be caveman-like thinking. They are definitely useful.

Steamroller would certainly put AMD in a better position, if it ever arrives. Excavator would be even more fantastic as far as power efficiency goes though. Steamroller fixes the low performance of Bulldozer, Excavator tackles power. If AMD makes it that far, they will be in a very good place, excluding potential fab disasters.

Piledriver definitely delivered more on the performance side of the equation than I had expected, but I was hoping for more on the power front. There's still a massive power difference under load. As a result, Piledriver as a whole did not meet my expectations. Especially when it comes to Trinity, as Llano's CPU cores are still more power efficient (at least while encoding).

This page is a particularly good resource for Intel vs. AMD comparison:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6396/the-vishera-review-amd-fx8350-fx8320-fx6300-and-fx4300-tested/7
Edited by Homeles - 12/15/12 at 11:36am
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