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[Inquirer] AMD sticks with Socket AM3+ for Steamroller, FM2 to get three years - Page 19

post #181 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by zulk View Post

That sounds good as even though the IMC's have improved from the phenom II days they are still much weaker compared to intels IMC, any take on how many channels they are to have, will it be the typical dual channel or triple or perhaps quad channel?
Also I do hope that the power consumption goes down with steamroller, with an IPC improvement of about 15-20% and a reduction in power consumption should do well for AMD.
DDR4 does away with channels, if I remember correctly.

I'm skeptical on Steamroller reducing power. I think it will likely be in the same envelope as Piledriver and Bulldozer, given the current architectural changes that have been stated. The manufacturing process just doesn't allow for it, unless they pushed it back far enough for it to be on 20nm FD-SOI.
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post #182 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

I wouldn't say niche, since it's about half of the tasks you need a fast CPU for would be better off on an AMD system and half on an Intel, power consumption matters little to quite a number of people, hence why HD79*0s and GTX 400/500 series cards sold decently.
The lackadaisical attitude about power consumption often held by system builders and enthusiasts is utterly irresponsible and selfish (do note that I am talking about excessive waste).

Also, how do you gather that half of the average user does are heavily-threaded?

Most of the time, my CPU is idling and using similar amounts of power to a Core i3 or the like, I'd rather have 3770k beating Compression performance and 3770k matching encoding performance (Stuff I do quite regularly) even if the power is a bit high.

OCN is predominately gaming biased, but for the most part high-end CPUs are used for stuff like that, what the average user does is irrelevant as it's definitely not CPU limited, a E-450 is probably enough for the average user, for people who do stuff that actually requires a fast CPU the majority of tasks require multiple cores.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCollins View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

You've never seen a chart from Anandtech before? You know, the reviewer with the most in-depth, honest reviews on the net? *The* go to place for solid state storage reviews? Fantastic top-to-bottom industry coverage?
AnandTech has tremendous weight with hardware manufacturers. With solid state in particular, they have single-handedly changed how manufacturers optimize their controllers.
They have tremendous viewership and fantastic reviews. If there you had to pick only one site to get your hardware reviews from, AnandTech would absolutely be that place (but please get information from multiple sources).

Yes becuase even members here, have noticed that PD uses 22-30% less power, except for aninteltech.com

Anandtech is the least biased and one of the most respected review sites, I've seen 2-3 reviews where PD used less power (at idle) than IvB but practically every review shows it using more power at load...It has way more transistors and double the core count, it's to be expected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by zulk View Post

That sounds good as even though the IMC's have improved from the phenom II days they are still much weaker compared to intels IMC, any take on how many channels they are to have, will it be the typical dual channel or triple or perhaps quad channel?
Also I do hope that the power consumption goes down with steamroller, with an IPC improvement of about 15-20% and a reduction in power consumption should do well for AMD.
DDR4 does away with channels, if I remember correctly.

I'm skeptical on Steamroller reducing power. I think it will likely be in the same envelope as Piledriver and Bulldozer, given the current architectural changes that have been stated. The manufacturing process just doesn't allow for it, unless they pushed it back far enough for it to be on 20nm FD-SOI.

What I'm wondering is how much performance increases overall, even if it's in the same power envelope if it manages to do the work faster than the equivalent Intel CPU by a certain amount it'd be worth it to most people who do care about power consumption. The only reason I'm going to an FX-8350 soon is because I can get SR and possibly Excavator on the same motherboard (990FXA-UD3), and if not I can still easily go Intel and retire it to server work.

DDR4 doesn't do away with channels, it just makes them irrelevant in that it makes it 1 channel = 1 module, rather than the 1 channel = 2 modules setup we have now for consumer systems, which means that the 1155 and AM3+ equivalent boards would either have 2 memory slots or 4 memory channels. I'm seriously hoping for the latter.
    
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post #183 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

What I'm wondering is how much performance increases overall, even if it's in the same power envelope if it manages to do the work faster than the equivalent Intel CPU by a certain amount it'd be worth it to most people who do care about power consumption. The only reason I'm going to an FX-8350 soon is because I can get SR and possibly Excavator on the same motherboard (990FXA-UD3), and if not I can still easily go Intel and retire it to server work.
AMD managed to pull as much as 15-20% out of some pretty minor changes with Piledriver. It's my opinion, as you know, that Bulldozer and Piledriver are "broken" architectures (Piledriver much less, but still so), and that it's easy to improve on garbage.

Steamroller addresses all but one of the major flaws of Bulldozer and Piledriver. Instruction cache misses are reduced by 30% (which is a big deal), introduces a μop cache which reduces a lot of the negatives of going to a longer pipeline and also increases the branch target buffer by 20% to prevent branch mispredictions in the first place, and finally doubles its decode width (which AnandTech says is easily the number one improvement going into Steamroller). The only thing left is reducing the painful cache and memory latencies.

I'm definitely not the most qualified person to speak on this subject, but it sounds like a lot. It's hard not to get excited on seeing that the 3 biggest flaws of the Bulldozer design are getting completely addressed. I'm going to give a conservative estimate of 20% higher performance at the same TDP, on average. I just worry a lot about AMD moving to 28nm bulk — it's not much of an improvement, if any at all, and may not allow AMD to flex the muscle it would have otherwise had.

I could definitely see 30% or higher being possible, but I just don't think that AMD is much of a miracle maker, and I have to build a certain amount of humbling into my predictions to account for that. Decode heavy applications should benefit very nicely, though. Not sure what those applications would be, although I know that they're traditionally not associated with consumer workloads.

Disclaimer: I am totally pulling these numbers out of my ass, but they sound good to me smile.gif
Quote:
DDR4 doesn't do away with channels, it just makes them irrelevant in that it makes it 1 channel = 1 module, rather than the 1 channel = 2 modules setup we have now for consumer systems, which means that the 1155 and AM3+ equivalent boards would either have 2 memory slots or 4 memory channels. I'm seriously hoping for the latter.
Is that bandwidth going to get utilized though? I can't see it being an issue, even for IGPs.
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post #184 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

What I'm wondering is how much performance increases overall, even if it's in the same power envelope if it manages to do the work faster than the equivalent Intel CPU by a certain amount it'd be worth it to most people who do care about power consumption. The only reason I'm going to an FX-8350 soon is because I can get SR and possibly Excavator on the same motherboard (990FXA-UD3), and if not I can still easily go Intel and retire it to server work.
AMD managed to pull as much as 15-20% out of some pretty minor changes with Piledriver. It's my opinion, as you know, that Bulldozer and Piledriver are "broken" architectures (Piledriver much less, but still so), and that it's easy to improve on garbage.

Steamroller addresses all but one of the major flaws of Bulldozer and Piledriver. Instruction cache misses are reduced by 30% (which is a big deal), introduces a μop cache which reduces a lot of the negatives of going to a longer pipeline and also increases the branch target buffer by 20% to prevent branch mispredictions in the first place, and finally doubles its decode width (which AnandTech says is easily the number one improvement going into Steamroller). The only thing left is reducing the painful cache and memory latencies.

I'm definitely not the most qualified person to speak on this subject, but it sounds like a lot. It's hard not to get excited on seeing that the 3 biggest flaws of the Bulldozer design are getting completely addressed. I'm going to give a conservative estimate of 20% higher performance at the same TDP, on average. I just worry a lot about AMD moving to 28nm bulk — it's not much of an improvement, if any at all, and may not allow AMD to flex the muscle it would have otherwise had.

I could definitely see 30% or higher being possible, but I just don't think that AMD is much of a miracle maker, and I have to build a certain amount of humbling into my predictions to account for that. Decode heavy applications should benefit very nicely, though. Not sure what those applications would be, although I know that they're traditionally not associated with consumer workloads.

Disclaimer: I am totally pulling these numbers out of my ass, but they sound good to me smile.gif
Quote:
DDR4 doesn't do away with channels, it just makes them irrelevant in that it makes it 1 channel = 1 module, rather than the 1 channel = 2 modules setup we have now for consumer systems, which means that the 1155 and AM3+ equivalent boards would either have 2 memory slots or 4 memory channels. I'm seriously hoping for the latter.
Is that bandwidth going to get utilized though? I can't see it being an issue, even for IGPs.

I think 20% minimum, even more for multi-threaded applications too.

As for the extra bandwidth, it will increase performance on the FM* pretty decently in the real world as PC OEMs tend to bundle them with 1333Mhz RAM, and the CPU and GPU communicate through the IMC. At the very least, you can bet AMDs lead in compression will increase.
    
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post #185 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

AMD managed to pull as much as 15-20% out of some pretty minor changes with Piledriver. It's my opinion, as you know, that Bulldozer and Piledriver are "broken" architectures (Piledriver much less, but still so), and that it's easy to improve on garbage.
Steamroller addresses all but one of the major flaws of Bulldozer and Piledriver. Instruction cache misses are reduced by 30% (which is a big deal), introduces a μop cache which reduces a lot of the negatives of going to a longer pipeline and also increases the branch target buffer by 20% to prevent branch mispredictions in the first place, and finally doubles its decode width (which AnandTech says is easily the number one improvement going into Steamroller). The only thing left is reducing the painful cache and memory latencies.
I'm definitely not the most qualified person to speak on this subject, but it sounds like a lot. It's hard not to get excited on seeing that the 3 biggest flaws of the Bulldozer design are getting completely addressed. I'm going to give a conservative estimate of 20% higher performance at the same TDP, on average. I just worry a lot about AMD moving to 28nm bulk — it's not much of an improvement, if any at all, and may not allow AMD to flex the muscle it would have otherwise had.
I could definitely see 30% or higher being possible, but I just don't think that AMD is much of a miracle maker, and I have to build a certain amount of humbling into my predictions to account for that. Decode heavy applications should benefit very nicely, though. Not sure what those applications would be, although I know that they're traditionally not associated with consumer workloads.
Disclaimer: I am totally pulling these numbers out of my ass, but they sound good to me smile.gif
Is that bandwidth going to get utilized though? I can't see it being an issue, even for IGPs.

Wow your analogy of improvements in steamroller seems to be quite detailed, Im not really an expert on cpu architecture but this kind of explains why bulldozers performance was below par than what most Amd fans had hoped for but lets hope that steamroller will be as much as an improvement as you state if not haswell will cause a dent in our pockets.

I guess you are right about that, with ddr4 there wont be any need for anything more than dual channel and it won't make that much of a difference as today's cpus don't utilize that much bandwidth that could be had from DDR4 quad channel I suppose.
post #186 of 216
Some rumors are saying quad-channel for the next high-end AMD socket, which is coming with Excavator, but I'd take that with a grain of salt.
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post #187 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by zulk View Post

Wow your analogy of improvements in steamroller seems to be quite detailed, Im not really an expert on cpu architecture but this kind of explains why bulldozers performance was below par than what most Amd fans had hoped for but lets hope that steamroller will be as much as an improvement as you state if not haswell will cause a dent in our pockets.
I guess you are right about that, with ddr4 there wont be any need for anything more than dual channel and it won't make that much of a difference as today's cpus don't utilize that much bandwidth that could be had from DDR4 quad channel I suppose.
Here's a good article on Bulldozer's weaknesses, and the source of my information: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5057/the-bulldozer-aftermath-delving-even-deeper
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post #188 of 216
Would be nice to see a proper competitor come out with the next AMD desktop CPU release. PileDriver sure did step up the game, but I just think the architecture is kinda crap. My 6300 handles games just fine and I can roll with the best of them, untill you put me on a single/dual threaded game like SC2 then you can tell my rig would better benefit from a Intel chip.

I have been with Intel for their last two gens, and loved them, but would like to stay on the AMD side for awhile, if they can offer a competitive chip, to what Intel is fixing to offer. I am thoroughly enjoying my vishera though, its quite a little beast.
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post #189 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

It's a niche Intel does well in, not really much of a reason to get an Intel CPU, I'd wager more people compress files or transcode video than fold, I'm curious to see if they've tried more recent comparisons for other compilers because 2x sounds a bit much, but if it's Fortran that could be why.
But like I said before, if we talk personal uses we'll be arguing all day.
I was somewhat joking, but if you're folding, Intel CPU's are going to give you the same or higher performance usually, with much lower power consumption. For folders, this is a HUGE factor to consider, since their CPU's are at full load 24/7.

His complaint was that F@H uses the Intel compiler, and my response was ignored. Notice the AMD compiler is licensed for AMD CPU's only? and Intel's compiler is twice as fast and more optimized, so it's no wonder they went with the Intel compiler over AMD's.

The solution here is simple, AMD needs to provide a faster and more optimized compiler over Intel's, and it also needs to support Intel CPU's. Will we see that? If the answer is no, then people need to stop complaining about companies using Intel's compiler, no matter how unfair it may be.

Besides, in the court settlement, wasn't Intel supposed to remove that limitation? Rumor has it, they haven't, and if that's the case, that would be a breach of the settlement and AMD should have a case, right? I'm not sure what the legalities of that are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

I could definitely see 30% or higher being possible, but I just don't think that AMD is much of a miracle maker, and I have to build a certain amount of humbling into my predictions to account for that. Decode heavy applications should benefit very nicely, though. Not sure what those applications would be, although I know that they're traditionally not associated with consumer workloads.
Disclaimer: I am totally pulling these numbers out of my ass, but they sound good to me smile.gif
Is that bandwidth going to get utilized though? I can't see it being an issue, even for IGPs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

I think 20% minimum, even more for multi-threaded applications too.
As for the extra bandwidth, it will increase performance on the FM* pretty decently in the real world as PC OEMs tend to bundle them with 1333Mhz RAM, and the CPU and GPU communicate through the IMC. At the very least, you can bet AMDs lead in compression will increase.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Vishera is what the original Bulldozer should've been.

One of my biggest problems leading up to the initial Bulldozer launch was that I questioned whether AMD could deliver the numbers being thrown around. I'm talking about the up to 50% higher performance thanks to the 33% extra cores I questioned if this was indeed true ( and got flamed for it often tongue.gif )

Based on what we know of the fixes and improvements coming with SR, ( Homeles summed it up nicely ) I agree that 20% minimum is definitely what we can expect with SR. Each core getting its own decoder alone will make a HUGE difference. It's also best to have a conservative estimate and not set our expectations too high. wink.gif

Pretty sure Homeles posted this already, but just in case it's a great read:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6201/amd-details-its-3rd-gen-steamroller-architecture

It's laughable that AT is considered Intel biased. Some of the most detailed articles, on current and future architectures from both sides are from Anandtech. They always report and tell it how it is, something I love to do, even if people don't want to hear it. When looking at their test bench, just ignore Sysmark results, the fact that they include Sysmark does not make them biased, it's just something they've always done.

No matter if you're an Intel or AMD "fan", I think we all have a mutual goal and want a much more "All Around" competitive AMD, this benefits all of us.
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post #190 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Besides, in the court settlement, wasn't Intel supposed to remove that limitation? Rumor has it, they haven't, and if that's the case, that would be a breach of the settlement and AMD should have a case, right? I'm not sure what the legalities of that are.

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that the only stipulation about the compiler that the settlement made was that Intel had to state somewhere in the documentation that performance would be negatively impacted on non-Intel CPUs. Which they've complied with. Sort of.
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Claire
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Inquirer] AMD sticks with Socket AM3+ for Steamroller, FM2 to get three years