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post #2721 of 3016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjolnir125 View Post

Yeah, nice mature response...

These are the ONLY features the reaver has: stronger vertical thrust (but not by much) and a shotgun with super limited range.


A mossy with no upgrades is faster than a racer 3 reaver when cruising, and a scythe has a faster top cruising speed than the reaver and is more maneuverable. The scythe is very hard to hit from one side and somewhat easier to hit from the other, while the mossy is hard to hit from any side, especially if it is rolling. The Reaver also has faster afterburner speed, but this is totally irrelevant in a dogfight. I can kill typical pilots in dogfights very easily, but when going up against a good pilot I simply can't out turn a scythe and I can't outrun a mossy; nor can I chase after them.

But please, instead of arguing the facts, continue to make personal attacks on me; it really reflects well on your maturity as a person.

Absolutely no personal attacks intended I was just being honest and I stand by the fact that you do not understand how balance works and by the fact that I won't bother explaining to you because I do not care if you do understand balance or not and my backing to this is that I know reaver pilots that just destroy everything, the fact that YOU can't do anything with a reaver is purely your fault for not understanding the strengths of it and how to use them but again, I won't bother explaining them to you.

Also I play all 3 factions and I am in the position of objectively criticising whether ESFs are balanced or not while you are clearly faction biased (like most people especially on the PS2 forums are) hence you will never understand how balance works because the common misconception of faction biased people is that the devs hate their faction and that they are the UP all the time and numerous stuff like that, that I see on the official PS2 forums everyday.

Anyway I am going to end this conversation because I tend not to answer to faction biased people because they have nothing useful to provide to me, to the devs or to people that read the forums but as a last thing I would like to say that you should not talk about something unless you are completely sure that you understand it.
post #2722 of 3016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjolnir125 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheByt3 View Post

You have quite some stuff that balance out the fact that you are less maneuverable but I won't even bother telling you what they are because you obviously do not understand how balance works, also as a matter of fact it is pretty much universally known that if you are a skilled pilot in a reaver you will just destroy skilled pilots in other ESFs, it just takes skill to be good with a Reaver if you don't like that then you might want to play a game that requires less skill.

Yeah, nice mature response...

These are the ONLY features the reaver has: stronger vertical thrust (but not by much) and a shotgun with super limited range.


A mossy with no upgrades is faster than a racer 3 reaver when cruising, and a scythe has a faster top cruising speed than the reaver and is more maneuverable. The scythe is very hard to hit from one side and somewhat easier to hit from the other, while the mossy is hard to hit from any side, especially if it is rolling. The Reaver also has faster afterburner speed, but this is totally irrelevant in a dogfight. I can kill typical pilots in dogfights very easily, but when going up against a good pilot I simply can't out turn a scythe and I can't outrun a mossy; nor can I chase after them.

But please, instead of arguing the facts, continue to make personal attacks on me; it really reflects well on your maturity as a person.

Just ignore him, you're right.

He has zero proof that said Reaver pilots would not do better in a Scythe or Mossy, so any argument in that regard is null. In FSO, the number one pilot flies a Persius (faster, slightly more armor, think Mosquito) and manages to kill me (2nd or 3rd best pilot, depending) in my Ulysses (more maneuverable, "flat" profile, think Scythe) on a regular basis. that does not mean he wouldn't do even better in a Uly, he just doesn't prefer to fly it because he doesn't like the gun placement (think's it's too wide) and it's harder to control (he's a keyboard only player, I use a joystick).

Coming from FSO, a space fighter sim not too unlike PS2's ESF handling, maneuverability is king, and speed is number two. It doesn't matter if your weapons are better if you can't land a hit. It doesn't matter if your afterburners are faster, you won't be using them in a dogfight, and in fact it can throw off your ability to turn quickly, letting someone on your tail. Target profile matters. A lot.

Larger, slower, less maneuverable but heavier armored and heavily armed targets do not stand a chance against a faster and more maneuverable target that stays on their tail. This is why liberators have tailgunners. You can't defend against what you can't shoot at.

You'll notice in the example above, the Uly lost something for it's extra maneuverability and smaller profile. It lost an entire missile bank. It could not equip the same guns, and was forced to use weaker ones. It had less armor and shields. It was slightly slower.

How many of these are reflected in the Reaver? It is both slower and less maneuverable, so surely it has weapon advantages and capacity advantages right? Nope. How about a smaller profile, or more armor? Nope.

It has a slightly faster afterburner, and a anti-infantry weapon that works well against aircraft at point blank. This means the slower, less maneuverable, larger aircraft needs to sneak up on the faster, more maneuverable, smaller target to try and end it quickly, before he's destroyed because he can't keep up in a solid dogfight.

But ya, pointing to a few Reaver pilots who kick ass does not prove anything. Skill is a factor. When you go against pilots of equal skill (something I've done, repeatedly), the pilot with the more maneuverable craft wins, baring things like running out of ammo or outside assistance.
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post #2723 of 3016
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Just ignore him, you're right.

He has zero proof that said Reaver pilots would not do better in a Scythe or Mossy, so any argument in that regard is null. In FSO, the number one pilot flies a Persius (faster, slightly more armor, think Mosquito) and manages to kill me (2nd or 3rd best pilot, depending) in my Ulysses (more maneuverable, "flat" profile, think Scythe) on a regular basis. that does not mean he wouldn't do even better in a Uly, he just doesn't prefer to fly it because he doesn't like the gun placement (think's it's too wide) and it's harder to control (he's a keyboard only player, I use a joystick).

Coming from FSO, a space fighter sim not too unlike PS2's ESF handling, maneuverability is king, and speed is number two. It doesn't matter if your weapons are better if you can't land a hit. It doesn't matter if your afterburners are faster, you won't be using them in a dogfight, and in fact it can throw off your ability to turn quickly, letting someone on your tail. Target profile matters. A lot.

Larger, slower, less maneuverable but heavier armored and heavily armed targets do not stand a chance against a faster and more maneuverable target that stays on their tail. This is why liberators have tailgunners. You can't defend against what you can't shoot at.

You'll notice in the example above, the Uly lost something for it's extra maneuverability and smaller profile. It lost an entire missile bank. It could not equip the same guns, and was forced to use weaker ones. It had less armor and shields. It was slightly slower.

How many of these are reflected in the Reaver? It is both slower and less maneuverable, so surely it has weapon advantages and capacity advantages right? Nope. How about a smaller profile, or more armor? Nope.

It has a slightly faster afterburner, and a anti-infantry weapon that works well against aircraft at point blank. This means the slower, less maneuverable, larger aircraft needs to sneak up on the faster, more maneuverable, smaller target to try and end it quickly, before he's destroyed because he can't keep up in a solid dogfight.

But ya, pointing to a few Reaver pilots who kick ass does not prove anything. Skill is a factor. When you go against pilots of equal skill (something I've done, repeatedly), the pilot with the more maneuverable craft wins, baring things like running out of ammo or outside assistance.

I actually have proof, first proof is that you can't read. I specifically said that I play all 3 factions hence I have the ability to criticize what I feel is "best" in a dogfight from the 3 ESFs and I feel them all quite balanced and I like the traits of all 3 of them but I am just a single person right?

Well my second proof is from the numerous great reaver pilots that have the same opinion as I do and you can find them easily on youtube, 80% of flying lessons with very skilled pilots on youtube are for reavers where each and every one of them will give you an insight on why the reaver is really good in the correct hands.

Comparing to another game proves nothing, I speak from personal experience with all 3 ESFs and pilots that know what they are doing will tell you the same but I won't even bother to point you anywhere since this conversation is over for me and I am not interested at all in convincing anyone about anything. If you like being faction biased and thinking that SOE is out to get you then be my guest it's your problem entirely and the devs do not listen to whining but to constructive criticism and first of all ACTUAL statistics so be my guest and believe whatever you want, I made whatever point I needed to make quite some time ago.
post #2724 of 3016
How many hours do you have on each of the ESFs? While my main character is NC, I have flown the scythe and mosquito as well, and I can pretty easily tell the advantages of both. The things I listed would be very apparent to anyone who has 20 seconds in any of the ESFs; it doesn't take a genius to discover that the mossy is faster and has a much smaller profile than the Reaver. I win most dogfights as a Reaver (and I don't use the airhammer much because of its limited range), but when I get into a turning fight with a scythe there is NOTHING I can do. If I stop, he will use his superior stopping power and turn and shoot me head on, while I have to try and hit his paper thin cross section with my cannon which has BULLET DROP, unlike the scythe weapons which have none.

The mossy is easier to kill with the Reaver because it has similar handling, but it can still run away from me fairly easily if I don't have my racer frame and/or afterburner fuel pods equipped. I have 2000+ certs into my reaver, so I have an advantage against most lower level pilots, but when I go up against a similarly upgraded scythe or mossy I am severely disadvantaged.

I find it odd that you somehow know that I lack competence simply based on what I am saying; I know how to do all of the "special" maneuvers with my Reaver, and they still don't make up for the Reaver's giant profile and slow speed.
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post #2725 of 3016
True, the Reaver in the right hands is capable.

The thing to note though is the massive range in effectiveness. A Reaver shows significant difference in capability between a new pilot who has say 10 hours and 500 cert investment, and an ace who has 30+ hours and 2k certs. The difference is huge. This shows that to use the Reaver is not simple and takes a lot of skill to be effective.

The Scythe and the Mosquito difference between beginner pilot and ace is far smaller. It is much easier to be effective in these fighters with less investment.

Yes, experienced pilots are expected to be more effective than beginner pilots, however you shouldn't have to be an ace pilot just to be effective. If you ask the "aces" for the Reaver how much time they put to be the best and then you ask the same from Scythe and Mosquito pilots you will find out just how much at a disadvantage the Reaver is.

That said, I still love the Reaver and will fly it forever biggrin.gif It just feels more like flying. Getting a kill is also hugely rewarding.
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post #2726 of 3016
just wondering what the reaver 'strength' is; besides the AH, of course smile.gif
seriously though, the reaver is bad. it has 0 flight advantages, save for the higher afterburner speed, which in reality is all but useless. the mozzie is WAY faster, and the scythe turns MUCH better. even if you can do serious damage to a mozzie, if they turn tail, a 'worse than you' mozzie pilot can easily shake you. the superior speed added to the little wiggle-dance they do combined with their slim profile makes them a very difficult target to shoot down when giving chase. where is the reaver advantage (if you're not using AirHammer) that gives the top pilots the advantage? I really don't think there is one. I really think that these 'top pilots' could do even better, with time invested, in the other ESFs, and it isn't that they have just found some miraculous way of piloting these bricks that the less-skilled pilots just cannot seem to figure out.
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post #2727 of 3016
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheByt3 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Just ignore him, you're right.

He has zero proof that said Reaver pilots would not do better in a Scythe or Mossy, so any argument in that regard is null. In FSO, the number one pilot flies a Persius (faster, slightly more armor, think Mosquito) and manages to kill me (2nd or 3rd best pilot, depending) in my Ulysses (more maneuverable, "flat" profile, think Scythe) on a regular basis. that does not mean he wouldn't do even better in a Uly, he just doesn't prefer to fly it because he doesn't like the gun placement (think's it's too wide) and it's harder to control (he's a keyboard only player, I use a joystick).

Coming from FSO, a space fighter sim not too unlike PS2's ESF handling, maneuverability is king, and speed is number two. It doesn't matter if your weapons are better if you can't land a hit. It doesn't matter if your afterburners are faster, you won't be using them in a dogfight, and in fact it can throw off your ability to turn quickly, letting someone on your tail. Target profile matters. A lot.

Larger, slower, less maneuverable but heavier armored and heavily armed targets do not stand a chance against a faster and more maneuverable target that stays on their tail. This is why liberators have tailgunners. You can't defend against what you can't shoot at.

You'll notice in the example above, the Uly lost something for it's extra maneuverability and smaller profile. It lost an entire missile bank. It could not equip the same guns, and was forced to use weaker ones. It had less armor and shields. It was slightly slower.

How many of these are reflected in the Reaver? It is both slower and less maneuverable, so surely it has weapon advantages and capacity advantages right? Nope. How about a smaller profile, or more armor? Nope.

It has a slightly faster afterburner, and a anti-infantry weapon that works well against aircraft at point blank. This means the slower, less maneuverable, larger aircraft needs to sneak up on the faster, more maneuverable, smaller target to try and end it quickly, before he's destroyed because he can't keep up in a solid dogfight.

But ya, pointing to a few Reaver pilots who kick ass does not prove anything. Skill is a factor. When you go against pilots of equal skill (something I've done, repeatedly), the pilot with the more maneuverable craft wins, baring things like running out of ammo or outside assistance.

I actually have proof, first proof is that you can't read. I specifically said that I play all 3 factions hence I have the ability to criticize what I feel is "best" in a dogfight from the 3 ESFs and I feel them all quite balanced and I like the traits of all 3 of them but I am just a single person right?

Well my second proof is from the numerous great reaver pilots that have the same opinion as I do and you can find them easily on youtube, 80% of flying lessons with very skilled pilots on youtube are for reavers where each and every one of them will give you an insight on why the reaver is really good in the correct hands.

Comparing to another game proves nothing, I speak from personal experience with all 3 ESFs and pilots that know what they are doing will tell you the same but I won't even bother to point you anywhere since this conversation is over for me and I am not interested at all in convincing anyone about anything. If you like being faction biased and thinking that SOE is out to get you then be my guest it's your problem entirely and the devs do not listen to whining but to constructive criticism and first of all ACTUAL statistics so be my guest and believe whatever you want, I made whatever point I needed to make quite some time ago.

I can read well actually, the only problem here is you not understanding what balance is, and pointing to some people who like to play a certain faction.

I can also tell when someone is lying about how much experience they have, as I also play all three factions. Guess what, I can 100% guarantee you do not have enough flight time experience with all three factions to make even a tenth the claims you do. Getting enough experience and certs on one character takes long enough, let alone three.

I listed things that actually pertain to balance. You both did not, and responded with none.

Also... ya, youtube. Good data backup right there. Want to try some real research next time? Numbers? Anything maybe? Perhaps even try finding a real number instead of 80%, since you can't even back that up.

Here's an example of actual data backing up a claim:


Oh, dang, look at that. Well, there goes your claim. And to save you time, the Reaver is:

For all ESFs:
Average Score/HR: 6.5% Below Average
Median Score/HR: 8.9% Below Average
Average Kills/HR: 9.2% Below Average
Average Veh Kills/HR: 6.6% Below Average
Average Deaths/HR: 3.7% Above Average
Average Damage/HR: 5.5% Below Average
Average: 6.7% Worse

In comparison to Scythe/Mosquito:
Average Score/HR: 9.5% Below Average
Median Score/HR: 12.8% Below Average
Average Kills/HR: 13.2% Below Average
Average Veh Kills/HR: 9.5% Below Average
Average Deaths/HR: 5.5% Above Average
Average Damage/HR: 8.1% Below Average
Average: 9.8% Worse

In comparison to Scythe:
Average Score/HR: 10.9% Lower
Median Score/HR: 12.8% Lower
Average Kills/HR: 13.9% Lower
Average Veh Kills/HR: 14.2% Lower
Average Deaths/HR: 7.6% Higher
Average Damage/HR: 11.5% Lower
Average: 11.8% Worse

In comparison to Mosquito:
Average Score/HR: 8.1% Lower
Median Score/HR: 12.8% Lower
Average Kills/HR: 12.3% Lower
Average Veh Kills/HR: 4.2% Lower
Average Deaths/HR: 3.6% Higher
Average Damage/HR: 4.3% Lower
Average: 7.55% Worse

How do you plan to discredit Sony's released numbers, what with the Reaver being the worst at everything, including dieing the most?
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post #2728 of 3016
I'm not sure why the Reaver vehicle kills per hour are lower; the vortek completel rapes tanks. I would guess it has something to do with it being easier to shoot out of the sky because of its size.

Anyway, those stats are neat and very telling; I didn't realize they had released ESF stats yet.
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post #2729 of 3016
I've found a well-placed tank round can remove the annoyance very quickly; but I have realized the Reaver is a bit of a flying boat. Much easier target then any other ESF.
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i5 6600k AsRock Fatal1ty Z170 ITX EVGA GTX 980 SC G. Skill Trident Z 16GB(2x8GB) 
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Samsung 830 64GB Samsung 840 Evo 120GB Seagate ST 2TB Seagate ST 500GB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Corsair H60 Win 10 Pro Planar PX2710MW AOC U2868PQU 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Rosewill RGB80 Corsair HX850 Corsair Obsidian 250D Logitech M705 
Mouse Pad
XTrac Ripper XL 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core 2 Duo T5670 Dell OEM Intel GMA 950 3Gb DDR2-667 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
WD Scorpio Blue 250Gb Linux Ubuntu 12.10 x64 15.4" Tru-Bright 1280x800 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Snapdragon 600 MSM8960 Adreno 320 2GB LPDDR 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
16GB+16GB Jelly Bean 4.2.2 JDQ 1080p 
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Little Black Box
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Vostro
(7 items)
 
Galaxy S4
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 6600k AsRock Fatal1ty Z170 ITX EVGA GTX 980 SC G. Skill Trident Z 16GB(2x8GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 830 64GB Samsung 840 Evo 120GB Seagate ST 2TB Seagate ST 500GB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Corsair H60 Win 10 Pro Planar PX2710MW AOC U2868PQU 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Rosewill RGB80 Corsair HX850 Corsair Obsidian 250D Logitech M705 
Mouse Pad
XTrac Ripper XL 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core 2 Duo T5670 Dell OEM Intel GMA 950 3Gb DDR2-667 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
WD Scorpio Blue 250Gb Linux Ubuntu 12.10 x64 15.4" Tru-Bright 1280x800 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Snapdragon 600 MSM8960 Adreno 320 2GB LPDDR 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
16GB+16GB Jelly Bean 4.2.2 JDQ 1080p 
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post #2730 of 3016
So annoying getting shot by a tank frown.gif
Rig 2.0
(16 items)
 
  
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i7 3770k Asus P8Z77-V EVGA GTX780 SC ACX Samsung DDR 3 (2 DIMMS) MV-3V4G3D/US 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung 830 SSD WD Caviar Black Asus DVD/RW Xigmatek s-1283 HDT (Air Cooling) 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Scythe Slipstream 1200RPM (x2) Antec 140mm + Antec 120mm + Xigmatek 120mm (x2) Win 7 64bit Acer S243HL bmii - 24" 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Corsair TX750 Corsair Carbide 300R MX 518 Auzentek X-Fi Forte 7.1 
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Rig 2.0
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 3770k Asus P8Z77-V EVGA GTX780 SC ACX Samsung DDR 3 (2 DIMMS) MV-3V4G3D/US 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung 830 SSD WD Caviar Black Asus DVD/RW Xigmatek s-1283 HDT (Air Cooling) 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Scythe Slipstream 1200RPM (x2) Antec 140mm + Antec 120mm + Xigmatek 120mm (x2) Win 7 64bit Acer S243HL bmii - 24" 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Corsair TX750 Corsair Carbide 300R MX 518 Auzentek X-Fi Forte 7.1 
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