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[NY Times] Uranium Plant Using Laser Technology Wins U.S. Approval - Page 5

post #41 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

How many people per year die from nuclear power plants, on average since they've existed? Maybe 3-4 people. By your logic you shouldn't allow cars anywhere near your neighborhood, or electricity, or gas, or other people, etc. You'll want to shut down all coal power plants as those are much more deadly than nuclear power.

Another person failing to understand. Am I really that bad at explaining my position? Please read my last post. The deaths involved in these disasters aren't the basis for my opposition.

Hence my first post in this thread.

There are nuclear alternatives that do not have a possibility of meltdown, that was what I was advocating.
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post #42 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortunex View Post

Nuclear power is the safest form of generating electricity. There have been zero nuclear-power related deaths in the US, and less than a couple thousand globally, in the past 30 years (including Chernobyl). Coal, natural gas, oil, hydro etc. are all more dangerous than nuclear, but I bet you're fine with having one of those power plants near you. 1,000 people die from falling down stairs every year. Are stairs too dangerous for you? Are you not going to find stairs where you live, based on that chance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aesir View Post

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed, they did not experience the effects of neutron activation, most of the radiation had dissipated within 48 hours of the bombing because they were air burst detonations. Please don't think that radiation is not a threat, neutron activation makes materials that come in contact with the reactor maternally emit radiation, the vehicle graveyard from Chernobyl can still kill you if you go near them because they're so hot still.

Exactly. We aren't talking about a simple immediately quantifiable number of deaths here. Many of the effects of radiation poisoning don't show up until much later in life and are difficult to conclusively pin to radiation. It's hard to say for sure that the radiation caused the sharp increase in cancer, but there is definitely a strong correlation. There is a resistance by the pro-nuclear side, and they often say nothing can be directly attributed to the accident. The other side goes the other way and blames every single case of cancer and death upon the accident, regardless of circumstance. Statistics gathering for radiation poisoning is difficult and inaccurate beyond the first degree. You can't prove that someone who dies 20 years down the line would have lived longer had they not been near the accident.

That said, no one can deny how much better Fukushima was handled in comparison to past events. For such a massive catastrophe, radiation was contained locally and the area is not uninhabitable for the next few thousand years. Chernobyl will not be back to safe levels for many thousand years as a comparison. It is a testament to how much more seriously we take nuclear disasters. Sweden didn't need to call up Japan and ask why their sensors were going wild this time around to find out that reactors were melting down.

I believe nuclear power is the way forward; however, it needs less fear and more respect than we give it. I would encourage everyone to take a little time to learn the science behind it and the current technology in place before condemning it as man's prideful technological folly. There should be no more operating outdated or poorly maintained reactors for example. The biggest step forward that I see is stricter guidelines considering the geography around the reactor. If your site is tectonically active, then I think we can agree that a nuclear reactor is not the plant of choice for that region.
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post #43 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Hence my first post in this thread.
There are nuclear alternatives that do not have a possibility of meltdown, that was what I was advocating.

yes, what i meant earlier in the first page was that the newer reactor designs run in a way that makes meltdowns almost impossible.
post #44 of 75
15-20 years after Military use or so.

Interesting.
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post #45 of 75
I don't know about you guys, but once I get my fart-powered reactor going, I'm going to be buying a lot of beans and getting that sucker generating massive power. I might need help, anyone interested?

It might not be as safe as nuclear...
    
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post #46 of 75
thread on internet about nuclear reactors = people who use a pc think there scientists redface.gif
post #47 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by HK_47 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontpwnmebro View Post

it seems, based on many so called "nuclear engineers" and "nuclear scientists" on the internet (many of them with some sort of proof or knowledge base to back it up for laymen), nuclear power plants are designed to make meltdowns almost impossible.
tell that to fukushima

Which was designed in the 1960s...By your logic, IvB like speed and efficiency is impossible because "tell that to the Intel 4004".
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIGhunter View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontpwnmebro View Post

it seems, based on many so called "nuclear engineers" and "nuclear scientists" on the internet (many of them with some sort of proof or knowledge base to back it up for laymen), nuclear power plants are designed to make meltdowns almost impossible.
Someone tell Japan that.

Lets see you design a piece of complex machinery that only fails due to the combination of possible human error, two massive natural disasters and a cut safety budget (iirc, wasn't the Tsunami wall 4m shorter than it should have been?) after 40 years, it was well past its used by date but no-one bothered to replace it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

As the consequences for nuclear accidents are forever I find the "almost zero" and "very unlikely" and "almost impossible" and ... reassurances to not be very reassuring. You have to be brain washed to accept nuclear power where you live, because in an long enough timeline "almost zero" and "very unlikely" suddenly become "almost 100" and "very likely".

Until you can say "accidents are impossible" and "zero chance of accident" you won't find nuclear power ever where I live.


edit: I should go through this thread and find all the quotes essentially admitting that sooner or later a nuclear accident will happen at any given reactor. "next to none" was used as I typed up my post.

Lets get rid of electricity in general, I mean people get shocked and die form it! After all, almost zero becomes almost 100, doesn't it? rolleyes.gif

There are areas that should never have nuclear power (eg. Tornado Alley, areas near the San Andreas Fault, etc) but plenty of areas that are relatively secluded and disaster free (Take for example, large areas of Australia) should definitely be considered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortunex View Post

Nuclear power is the safest form of generating electricity. There have been zero nuclear-power related deaths in the US, and less than a couple thousand globally, in the past 30 years (including Chernobyl). Coal, natural gas, oil, hydro etc. are all more dangerous than nuclear, but I bet you're fine with having one of those power plants near you. 1,000 people die from falling down stairs every year. Are stairs too dangerous for you? Are you not going to find stairs where you live, based on that chance?
Sooner or later, an accident is going to happen at ANYTHING. Walking down the street, driving, shopping, taking a shower. Are those too risky for you?

People. Real families. Generations of human beings have been living at and around chernobyl and fukushima for as long as there have been humans. 10's (100's?) of thousands of years of human habitation. All changed irrevocably in an instant. People will never live at these sites again.

No other power generating technology has the potential to render large chunks of habitable land uninhabitable forever. Which is why "almost zero" and "next to none" while acceptable for other technologies isn't for nuclear power.

honestly... what does 1000 people falling down stairs have to do with this... falling down stairs doesn't render them radioactive forever.

The deaths associated with these failures are immaterial to my opposition to nuclear power. They are human tragedies that I feel compassion for but people die every day in all sorts of ways. My opposition is because the consequences for nuclear plant failures arn't just for us. They are also for our descendants. A thousand generations of humans will be dealing with chernobyl and fukushima.

Same story due to deforestation (Which can cause mudslides) and mining, does this mean we should stop using wood and anything we can't find on the surface completely? There's at least one example of an entire town moved (Literally, each house moved by truck.) for a new open cut mine for gold, it was on that show that was on about moving large buildings.

As for permanent damage...Radiation clears, sure it might take a very long time but it clears and it only happens if the reactor explodes, considering we're at what? 4-5 major explosions for god knows how many reactors, versus coal, gas, etc (The only real alternatives that would work for world-wide power) which constantly put more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere and help climate change.

If you don't want nuclear power because radiation can cause an area to become uninhabitable..Why are you using a computer? The materials used to make that didn't come from thin air, they helped make an area uninhabitable (Chances are, anyway), not to mention how much other stuff you definitely have that would have more than just a possibility of containing something that was extracted in a way that made an area uninhabitable, so why are you having double standards? Throw out your PC, etc unless you can verify that the materials used were gathered in ways that didn't somehow cause an area to become uninhabitable.
    
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post #48 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortunex View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttwerdun View Post

I dont know why Im arguing with you because I understand with what you are saying, but the implications of your comparisons are way off and thats why I am posting.
when a plant melts down it causes cities to move, relocate, ect. When you fall down stairs and die people call you stupid and laugh it off....
There have been "scenarios" where the "chain of death" or some crazy scenario is explained where if fukushima melts down too the point they cant control it, other nuclear plants are in that area where the radiation would be too high to do maintenance and control them causing them to do the same thing over a long period of time, causing more plants in those plants range do the same..... and so on. Japan could be lost.
Do I believe this stuff? of course not, this is some dooms day engineer going off the deep end. But what it does show is theres a lot more damage to surrounding areas then you falling down a set of stairs.
WE as humans already talk of over populating this world, and even though there is much land/water/forrrest left, there comes a point where you ask yourself what if a plant near New York went. OR a plant near a major fresh water supply that flows to lands that grow food.
Its much more complicated then 1000 people die from being stupid falling down stairs a year, no one died from a melt down this year so stairs > melt downs for whats more dangerous.

So where's the complaints for coal, oil, hydro or natural gas? All more dangerous both to the populace and the environment, but I can almost guarantee you're getting your electricity from one of those.

APUvA.png

More people die from falling down stairs every year than the total death toll for nuclear power in the past 30 years. Nuclear power is extremely safe.
THIS.
post #49 of 75
well its extremely safe if you take care of it. take chernobyl for example. they thought it was a random error, 25 years later pripyat is still a ghost town.
 
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post #50 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

So why can't be just move on to Thorium already, and bypass the issues of meltdown entirely?

Because there are only a handful of thorium reactors and the technology is not mature.

It's a devil you know kind of situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aesir View Post

Cause of government's cling to the ability to destroy the Earth many times over, and the fear that it instills on others. I don't think that governments would back better reactors if there was no possibility to make weapons from the investment.

There are also many old weapons being decommissioned and repurposing the material for civilian use makes sense.

Of course, the ability to make new weapons is likely a factor as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

Construction of the Fukushima I plant began in 1967 and it was commissioned in 1971, 40 years before the incident. The way nuclear tech and validation works this means that the design of the plant is going to be even older, probably more like 50 years old. We have moved on a great deal since then - newer designs like the pebble bed reactor are supposedly fail safe in that even if the cooling is shut off completely it won't melt down.
I find it hard to blame the operators for the incident. I have been in the control room of a coal plant when everything went to hell - you get presented with a lot of conflicting information. Some gauges will read one thing, others another. It is difficult to tell at the time which ones are reading the right thing and which ones are faulty, and it would be very hard to get an accurate picture of what is going. Add to that the fact that you don't have long to make a decision and the fear of making the wrong one...
So no, I really can't blame the operators. It is easy to piece things together afterwards from the comfort of a desk and criticize.

I don't blame the lowest level of operators, but any reactor that melts down has experienced some significant level of mismanagement somewhere.

If you put your reactors in a location that is prone to earthquakes, tsunami, and typhoons, you make damn sure it's designed to handle the worst case scenario of all of these conditions. This certainly includes loss of the power grid and flooding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

How many people per year die from nuclear power plants, on average since they've existed? Maybe 3-4 people.

Indirect deaths are vastly higher than this, but still probably much lower than most other methods.

Such things are not easy to measure.
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