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Review of GIGABYTE's 2nd Gen. X79 Workstation MB: X79S-UP5 - Page 14

post #131 of 367
I was trying to see if I could extrapolate actual current consumption (and thus true throttle point) based on current limits listed in Intel's whitepapers relative to the wattage reported in software, adjusted to the true voltage measurements from the back of the board. Turned out to be less clear than I had hoped, so I will probably just get a new ammeter at some point and measure the current being delivered via the +12v EPS connector, which should give me an accurate enough number to confirm or refute the aforementioned software readings.

Regardless, it's not the absolute measurement that counts. The software readings are consistent between our boards and CPUs, and show a consistent trend of throttling around ~193w.

Anyway, as for the voltage read points:



There are many other places to measure, but those are some of the ones I found most convienent, given the location of the cut out on my mobo tray.

In general, the voltages read about 10-20mv higher than what software is reporting, even after adjusting for the closest ground point. Not a huge different, but worth mentioning.

I also noticed that when CPU voltage was set to "normal", that the vcore readings were very similar to the VID reported by Throttle Stop.
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post #132 of 367
Heard from Gigabyte again. They have reproduced the problem but are trying to claim that it is a "one off only affecting C2 chips over 4.4GHz". This is not true as I and others have already indicated in many of my test results. Here is a screenshot of their response to me and my response back to them. I may be getting a BIOS to test that is supposed to resolve this issue, but I certainly do not want any "one off custom BIOS" only for me.
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post #133 of 367
Omg, you will not believe this...

Here is the response I got to the above. I really feel like I am talking to a wall...I keep saying, "there is a problem with your freaking board and here is proof" and what I am getting back is "oh, there is a problem with our board? can you show us?" AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!! mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif



And here are the results that I just uploaded to them as well...

First, no throttle at stock...low voltage.


Next, throttle at stock, increased voltage.


And finally, once again throttle at 4.1GHz.
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post #134 of 367
Gawd, what drama. "Yes, it appears you are correct. A fix for 3930K c2 is in progress". How hard is that to say? GB is looking increasingly idiotic in their replies, for reasons I can't figure out. After reading this thread, I took back a Black Friday $399 3930K (c2), and may try to sell this mobo soon if GB doesn't start to respond more intelligently to all this evidence. Just wanted to thank dejanh, not only for the herculean efforts here, but also for the impressive civility he continues to show. Bravo on both counts, and thanks.
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post #135 of 367
Yeah, I lost patience with Gigabyte weeks ago. The problem has been proven to exist repeatedly, by more than one person, over several CPUs, and several X79S-UP5 boards.

Either they are supremely incompetent or they are bold faced liars. I cannot excuse either.

Gigabyte, your TDP limit is too low. Stop jerking us around and fix it, sooner rather than later, or you are going to lose many repeat customers, probably forever. As it stands, the absolute highest stable speed I can achive on this board with my mediocre 3930k sample, before seeing throttling, is 3.8GHz. This is not even an overclock, it's the default turbo frequency. If it was a problem with the CPU, the CPU wouldn't do ~4.5GHz in every other brand of board I can find. Yes, we know your golden 3930k isn't throttling at 4.4GHz or below, but if I had a golden 3930k, I would be running it at 4.8GHz plus. Care to try that and tell me you don't see throttling on this board?

Anyway, dejanh, I appreciate your efforts, but I've had it up to my eyeballs with Gigabyte's denial, and have just swapped out my board. This X79S-UP5-WIFI is going to the Box of Expensive Mistakes to collect dust for a while. I can't RMA it because according to Gigabyte, nothing is wrong, but I can't even sell the thing at a 50% loss in good consciousness. Shoot me a PM if Gigabyte ever releases a non-alpha BIOS.
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post #136 of 367
Decided to take the board out of the box and put it in for a test. I've set the multi to 45x. It seems when the power reaches 177w (as per HWMonitor), it will start to dance around 41x - 44x. When power reaches 188w, it will go down even to 32x at times. It just won't reach 45x. CPU is also a 3930k C2.

@dejanh (or anyone), when you run that AIDA Cache and Memory Bnechmark, how long does it take. Mine takes about 3 minutes or so to complete. This is with everything on stock. Not sure if the memory (GTX3) have anything to do with it. My other x79 board does not behave the same.
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post #137 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxxx.ph View Post

Decided to take the board out of the box and put it in for a test. I've set the multi to 45x. It seems when the power reaches 177w (as per HWMonitor), it will start to dance around 41x - 44x. When power reaches 188w, it will go down even to 32x at times. It just won't reach 45x. CPU is also a 3930k C2.

Same problem as most people who have bothered to check.

What voltages are you attempting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxxx.ph View Post

@dejanh (or anyone), when you run that AIDA Cache and Memory Bnechmark, how long does it take. Mine takes about 3 minutes or so to complete. This is with everything on stock. Not sure if the memory (GTX3) have anything to do with it. My other x79 board does not behave the same.

Are you using the XMP profile?

What BIOS version?

I never did much benchmarking, but I didn't run into any obvious issues beyond the throttling and UEFI weirdness already mentioned.
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post #138 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by antonbrk View Post

Gawd, what drama. "Yes, it appears you are correct. A fix for 3930K c2 is in progress". How hard is that to say? GB is looking increasingly idiotic in their replies, for reasons I can't figure out. After reading this thread, I took back a Black Friday $399 3930K (c2), and may try to sell this mobo soon if GB doesn't start to respond more intelligently to all this evidence. Just wanted to thank dejanh, not only for the herculean efforts here, but also for the impressive civility he continues to show. Bravo on both counts, and thanks.
Thanks for the props. I hope that at the end of the whole ordeal the effort pays off. I would say that your decision to scrap the platform is a good one. Maybe in due time once all of the issues have been ironed out it may make sense to jump to it again, but for now I would not recommend it at all. I would certainly have a hard time recommending Gigabyte boards at all based on my current experience. Funny thing is, this is the first time I had to really interact with their support and wow has the experience been unpleasant. I actually never had these types of issues with Asus, though I did hear plenty of horror stories from other people in that camp as well redface.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Yeah, I lost patience with Gigabyte weeks ago. The problem has been proven to exist repeatedly, by more than one person, over several CPUs, and several X79S-UP5 boards.
Either they are supremely incompetent or they are bold faced liars. I cannot excuse either.
Gigabyte, your TDP limit is too low. Stop jerking us around and fix it, sooner rather than later, or you are going to lose many repeat customers, probably forever. As it stands, the absolute highest stable speed I can achive on this board with my mediocre 3930k sample, before seeing throttling, is 3.8GHz. This is not even an overclock, it's the default turbo frequency. If it was a problem with the CPU, the CPU wouldn't do ~4.5GHz in every other brand of board I can find. Yes, we know your golden 3930k isn't throttling at 4.4GHz or below, but if I had a golden 3930k, I would be running it at 4.8GHz plus. Care to try that and tell me you don't see throttling on this board?
Anyway, dejanh, I appreciate your efforts, but I've had it up to my eyeballs with Gigabyte's denial, and have just swapped out my board. This X79S-UP5-WIFI is going to the Box of Expensive Mistakes to collect dust for a while. I can't RMA it because according to Gigabyte, nothing is wrong, but I can't even sell the thing at a 50% loss in good consciousness. Shoot me a PM if Gigabyte ever releases a non-alpha BIOS.
Yeah, I feel you. I will let you know what happens as things progress. AnandTech path was also a dead end. They wished me the best of luck but they will not update their review to point out problems with the board. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxxx.ph View Post

Decided to take the board out of the box and put it in for a test. I've set the multi to 45x. It seems when the power reaches 177w (as per HWMonitor), it will start to dance around 41x - 44x. When power reaches 188w, it will go down even to 32x at times. It just won't reach 45x. CPU is also a 3930k C2.
@dejanh (or anyone), when you run that AIDA Cache and Memory Bnechmark, how long does it take. Mine takes about 3 minutes or so to complete. This is with everything on stock. Not sure if the memory (GTX3) have anything to do with it. My other x79 board does not behave the same.
Thanks for confirming. It is exactly what I would expect. In fact, you can pick up any off the shelf GA-X79S-UP5 board and any off the shelf Core i7 3930K C2 CPU and you will have the same problems. The very least that Gigabyte should have done is made it clear that this board does not support K type CPUs and that no support for them is forthcoming. Then they should offer a $200 refund to everyone who bought it because without support for K-type CPUs this board is as good only as an entry level board. Even the SAS support is lacking as shadow memory limitations prevent using RSTe and SAS RAID at the same time. You can forget using Marvell RAID on top of that. It's either that, or they can offer a simple fix for all of us...actually release a BIOS that removes the idiotic TDP limits that are imposed and let us use our chips properly.

As for Everest (AIDA64) benchmark, yes, it does take the same amount of time for me on this board. This is actually "by design" believe it or not, at least according to AIDA64. Apparently due to the complexity of the IMC and the pathways it can take several minutes for the benchmark to calculate latencies accurately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Same problem as most people who have bothered to check.
What voltages are you attempting?

Are you using the XMP profile?
What BIOS version?
I never did much benchmarking, but I didn't run into any obvious issues beyond the throttling and UEFI weirdness already mentioned.
I'd like to point out that I in fact did prove that the board will throttle even at stock settings, just by increasing the voltage. Sure I had to bump the voltage up to 1.488V at load but fact of the matter is that it is just another way of demonstrating that there is a hard limit built in that causes this problem to occur. In fact, while doing the tests at stock clocks I tried to estimate the TDP ceiling and I (as we already suspected) gauged it at approximately 200W.

At stock clocks and stock voltage of about 1.248V at load, the TDP of the chip with turbo to 3.8GHz is approximately 176W according to HWMonitor. This results in approximate current draw of 141A. If we extrapolate from here, increasing the voltage to 1.488V at load the TDP of the chip with turbo to 3.8GHz is approximately 210W. Please note that I have also tested 1.408V at stock clocks with turbo to 3.8GHz, which nets approximately 197W of power and the chip does not (at least not visibly) throttle. The limit appears to be approximately 200W. Keep in mind that this TDP limit is a freaking joke. The VRM stages on this board are capable at 60A per stage, and that has to be at minimum 1.4V output (deducted from Intel specifications for SB-E chips), which is 84W per stage output, or approximately 672W total output. With a cap of 200W, we are effectively limiting the current per stage to 17.9A. That is limit on power and current at a stupidly, ridiculously low 30% of the actual VRM capacity. I guess this is what Gigabyte means when they say up to 60C cooler. rolleyes.gifredface.gif

**********

I have proposed to them directly to raise the cap for current to a realistic 384 Amps output and power to 538 Watts output if they really need to play it so safe. This is still 20% lower than the VRM capacity and is based on the Intel safe specifications for voltage for SB-E chips.

Here are the VRM specification for everyone's reference - https://ec.irf.com/v6/en/US/adirect/ir?cmd=catProductDetailFrame&productID=IR3550
And here is the Intel specification for SB-E chips (section 7.4, table 7-8) - http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/datasheet/core-i7-lga-2011-datasheet-vol-1.pdf

Edit: I have revised the calculations above to conform to the official ratings for the MOSFETs and the SB-E series of chips.
Edited by dejanh - 12/5/12 at 10:58am
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post #139 of 367
Another update, here is what I sent to them...


And also in text format so Google can index it...

Quote:
Hi there,

I'm writing one more note to you in relation to the throttling problem that all users are experiencing with the GA-X79S-UP5 board and Core i7 3930K C2 stepping processors (very likely all C2 processors and possibly other processors are affected as well).

I have reviewed the specifications for both the IR3550 power MOSFETs found here https://ec.irf.com/v6/en/US/adirect/ir?cmd=catProductDetailFrame&productID=IR3550 and the Intel voltage specifications found here under section 7.4, table 7-8 http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/datasheet/core-i7-lga-2011-datasheet-vol-1.pdf and have come to the following conclusion.

First, we take the following data.

1. The IR3550 are rated at maximum output of 60A per stage as per the datasheet.
2. The Vcc MAX for SB-E chips is rated at 1.4V.

Next, from the data above, we can extrapolate that the maximum power should be set at 672W (84W per stage derived from 1.4V * 60A). If you want to "play it safe" you could set the maximum power to be limited to 20% less than this, or 538W (~67W per stage derived from 1.4V * 48A).

There is absolutely no reason for the ridiculously low hard-coded limits that are currently built into the UEFI BIOS as per information provided to me in email ID 1293966. Based on what you have told me in that email, the limits are currently set at 25A per stage at 1.4V output, which is only 40% of the capacity of the VRM. I have actually calculated that they are even lower capping the total current output per stage to approximately 17.9A and total power output to approximately 200W.

Please let me know when you will have a UEFI BIOS released that raises the current and power limits to an acceptable level of 384 Amps and 538 Watts. This is still well below your "safe" thresholds and should allow this board to function properly with K-type unlocked processors (C2 stepping and others).

Once the UEFI BIOS firmware has been corrected to set the appropriate current and power limits (384 Amps and 538 Watts respectively) are tested to work correctly, you should update the Turbo Power Limit (Watts) setting and the Core Current Limit (Amps) setting in the "Advanced CPU Core Features" to correspond to these limits. This would allow the end user to control what they wish to be the cap for the current and power on the board, while still making sure that the overall current and power thresholds do not exceed the maximum safe values that are built into the firmware.

Let me know when a fixed UEFI BIOS will be available and please feel free to share it with me for testing.

Thanks,

Dejan

Edited by dejanh - 12/5/12 at 11:05am
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post #140 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by dejanh View Post

I'd like to point out that I in fact did prove that the board will throttle even at stock settings, just by increasing the voltage.

Yeah, I did notice this.

This proves that it's not just a current limit.

EDIT: The 165A current limit on SB-E parts corresponds almost exactly to the 193w peak I was seeing at the 1.2-1.25v I was attempting to OC with. So, it appears that there is both a current and total wattage limit, just as the BIOS settings would suggest, but no way to actually increase them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dejanh View Post

I have proposed to them directly to raise the cap for current to a realistic 384 Amps output and power to 538 Watts output if they really need to play it so safe. This is still 20% lower than the VRM capacity and is based on the Intel safe specifications for voltage for SB-E chips.

Intel has specifications for max current (165A for the cores of hex core parts) as well, so it seems odd to me that you would exceed that by nearly three fold while sticking closely to the max voltage rating.

I think a more reasonable limit would be based off a minimum of double the current specification and 1.6v minimum, to account for overclocking with high end cooling. So, no hard limit until at least 330A and 528w. And obviously these limits should be reflected in the BIOS settings.

I do understand why Gigabyte set the limit lower. The VRM already gets rather warm at around 120A, and 300A+ would not be sustainable without active cooling. Still, there is absolutely no reason for a cap as low as it is, on a board that advertises OCing ability on the front of the box. There is also no reason for a 1200w limit to be an option in the BIOS when the real limit is less than one sixth that.
Edited by Blameless - 12/5/12 at 4:24pm
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