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post #141 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

I don't understand your pointed questions? Spec is 5v not 9.3v. What is the confusion?

what keeping msi from using a higher rated pwm on a non-ref design?
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post #142 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

The same reason EVGA is now being forced to Pull EVBot Support from GTX 680 Classified.
The reason is that NVIDIA wants to dumb down overclocking and bully their AIB partners. It's nothing new for them.

I don't think you get it, really in a nice way I'm saying. AMD is dumbing down overclocking as well. They both do, they have to protect their products and their bottom lines, nothing new. You seem to think it's Nvidia only? Perhaps AMD is not as cheap in their PCB designs, which has something to do with my preference for AMD reference boards over customs like MSI's Lightnening and Asus' DC2 on the red team.


That said, what Nvidia did with EVGA is different from what MSI did. I guess you don't/can't see the differences? Would your purchase of said card have anything to do with it? You better hope it doesn't blow because they will be sending out revised cards right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturin View Post

what keeping msi from using a higher rated pwm on a non-ref design?

From what I gather, that part of the circuit isn't intended to carry that sort of load (nor it seemed like it was ever dreamt that it would carry double the load), and it would still cause issues with PSU's. Nevermind that MSI is using it for a different purpose right?
Edited by tsm106 - 10/3/12 at 10:23am
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post #143 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

That said, what Nvidia did with EVGA is different from what MSI did. I guess you don't/can't see the differences? Would your purchase of said card have anything to do with it? You better hope it doesn't blow because they will be sending out revised cards right?

I'd be surprised if some of these folks could even tell the difference between Vcore and PCH voltage. rolleyes.gif
Edited by friend'scatdied - 10/3/12 at 10:34am
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post #144 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I don't think you get it, really in a nice way I'm saying. AMD is dumbing down overclocking as well. They both do, they have to protect their products and their bottom lines, nothing new. You seem to think it's Nvidia only? Perhaps AMD is not as cheap in their PCB designs, which has something to do with my preference for AMD reference boards over customs like MSI's Lightnening and Asus' DC2 on the red team.
That said, what Nvidia did with EVGA is different from what MSI did. I guess you don't/can't see the differences? Would your purchase of said card have anything to do with it? You better hope it doesn't blow because they will be sending out revised cards right?
From what I gather, that part of the circuit isn't intended to carry that sort of load (nor it seemed like it was ever dreamt that it would carry double the load), and it would still cause issues with PSU's. Nevermind that MSI is using it for a different purpose right?

The purpose is what i don't understand, (i have very limited knowledge electrical knowlege). How does overvolting the pwn (now that i understand that part) increase the performance of the core?
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post #145 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

I don't think you get it, really in a nice way I'm saying. AMD is dumbing down overclocking as well. They both do, they have to protect their products and their bottom lines, nothing new. You seem to think it's Nvidia only? Perhaps AMD is not as cheap in their PCB designs, which has something to do with my preference for AMD reference boards over customs like MSI's Lightnening and Asus' DC2 on the red team.
That said, what Nvidia did with EVGA is different from what MSI did. I guess you don't/can't see the differences? Would your purchase of said card have anything to do with it? You better hope it doesn't blow because they will be sending out revised cards right?

lol, if the card I buy doesn't have voltage control already, you better believe it will when I'm done with it biggrin.gif

The way I look at it, if I'm paying extra for a special edition "enthusiast" card, it better save me some time by having voltage control. I don't care if that means it comes with pencil LED scribbled over some resistors or what. If I wanted the same vanilla crap I would just buy a reference card.

This is backlash because NVIDIA had such a design fail with the original GTX 590 with the 4 phase VRMs that made go boom.
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post #146 of 189
^^Still not thinking critically and blah blah blah I'm an enthusiast ad hominem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturin View Post

The purpose is what i don't understand, (i have very limited knowledge electrical knowlege). How does overvolting the pwn (now that i understand that part) increase the performance of the core?


I'm not an EE either. I imagine what MSI is doing is tricking the card/force it to run boost clock longer than Nvidia's algorithm would allow. The problem is the voltage causes issues with the PSU and product reliability.
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post #147 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceteris View Post

MSI didn't do it to liberate the masses from nVidia's tyrannical regulation on voltage for their Kepler line. They did it to make profit. If they did this purely for the overclockers, gamers, etc benefit only and to stick it to nVidia they would've posted it on their box. They did this knowing that all other competitors are following the the rules and chose not to disclose that they were going to breach their agreement with nVidia to give their cards an advantage.

Cool... as long as the cards are still stable and reliable i'm in. biggrin.gif I wish EVGA would unlock the voltage on my card and keep the warranty.
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post #148 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

lol, if the card I buy doesn't have voltage control already, you better believe it will when I'm done with it biggrin.gif
The way I look at it, if I'm paying extra for a special edition "enthusiast" card, it better save me some time by having voltage control. I don't care if that means it comes with pencil LED scribbled over some resistors or what. If I wanted the same vanilla crap I would just buy a reference card.
This is backlash because NVIDIA had such a design fail with the original GTX 590 with the 4 phase VRMs that made go boom.

Why does it take so much effort to try and get you to recognize the difference between the following terms:

1. core voltage, which not a single person in this thread as far as I am aware of is against the modification of
and
2. PWM voltage, of comparatively nebulous benefit/consequence

It's confounding.mad.gif
Edited by friend'scatdied - 10/3/12 at 10:43am
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post #149 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by friend'scatdied View Post

Why does it take so much effort to try and get you to recognize the difference between the following terms:
1. core voltage, which not a single person in this thread as far as I am aware of is against the modification of
and
2. PWM voltage, of comparatively nebulous benefit/consequence
It's confounding.mad.gif
This rampant ignorance (of which many people in the thread are suffering from) is just harrowing.

I'm sorry, but there is no way I can teach you 16 years of electronics knowledge in one day, but an Ugly's Book might be a good start for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

^^Still not thinking critically and blah blah blah I'm an enthusiast ad hominem.
I'm not an EE either. I imagine what MSI is doing is tricking the card/force it to run boost clock longer than Nvidia's algorithm would allow. The problem is the voltage causes issues with the PSU and product reliability.

You'll never set any Hardware Bot records with that attitude.
Edited by damric - 10/3/12 at 10:47am
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post #150 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

From what I gather, that part of the circuit isn't intended to carry that sort of load (nor it seemed like it was ever dreamt that it would carry double the load), and it would still cause issues with PSU's. Nevermind that MSI is using it for a different purpose right?

I think the source OP quoted explained this in more detail, basically the overvolted PWM would demand more than 12V from the PSU's 12V rail at start-up and with some PSUs this would cause a boot failure. Also constantly overvolting the PWM circuit by 88% likely causes the Fans to either malfunction(noisy/whine) or just completely don't work after a while.(There are quite a few instances of one PE's TFIV fan, the one closet to the I/O panel would first produce a lot of noise then completely not work, it have been documented in the MSI 670 PE topic in this forum)
Quote:
A small component completely superfluous to the normal circuit in one of the ground connections causes major overvoltage in the PWM chip in question – instead of the 5 volts specified by Richtek, the chip is hit with up to 9.3 volts. That can’t be good for its life expectancy in the long run and also causes the issues we mentioned above. In combination with some PSUs, the system will be unable to start up if the 12 volt rail has to provide more that 12 volts to one of the PowerEdition models (even within the ATX spec). In other cases, MSI’s circuit trick can trigger a black screen or cause a driver crash when a change of load occurs. We find it hard to believe in a design accident here, since the circuit in question is a standard design – if implemented correctly.

Edited by sherlock - 10/3/12 at 10:52am
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