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[Gamasutra] World of Warcraft gains 1M subs following Pandaria release - Page 10

post #91 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

I think the negative stigma comes from single optioned grinding myself. If you link grinding to a currency, then provide various methods of obtaining said currency, people can choose how they want to grind and how often to grind. When you only provide a player with one way of grinding for what they want, or separate grindable items by using multiple different currencies, you're taking away people's options.

Exactly this! A grind is having only one option , and a repetetive one at that for the end goal. Modern MMOs do not have this. There are a lot of options, a lot of ways to have fun.

I think people need to refer to the origination of the term "grind".
post #92 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Let's have a history lesson on the term "grind". The term has changed meaning in recent years - but by the common definition, a grind is doing the same activity repeatedly, such as killing the same mob 4000 times to gain experience. That is my definition of grind, and neither GW2 or WoW have this. They both make the pursuit of character progression fun with varied quests, interesting dungeons, and what not. It is never a repetitive, kill the same mob 4000 times type of deal.
Either way, it sounds like RPGs are not for you. And that's cool. Yet, your statement about grind is so wrong when it comes to modern MMOs. When I think of "grind" I think of early everquest which was a great game at the time, yet a lot of activities were repetetive. MMOs have come a long way in this respect - they are a lot more interesting and fun (to me). WoW gives you many options to get gear, if you want to pvp? fine, do that. Pve? Great, tons of raids in the game to do that. Do you want to quest? You can do this as well. GW2 is similar as well, there are a lot of methods for the same goal.
When I hear someone complain of grind I have to wonder what freaking game they're playing. The term "grind" originated from games like Final Fantasy online or everquest - which while being great games for their timeframe, had a lot of repetitive activities. Modern MMOs have improved on this greatly. I guess the definition of grind is radically different than it was in the past - in any case, it sounds like you should stick to action games and never touch a RPG.



Man seriously this! These people really have no clue what a "grind" really is because it's thrown around so loosely. FF11 back when it was fresh was an incredibly difficult game to solo in and that's what made it feel like such an epic game. There are zones I never got to even see in the game and a ton of bosses I never got to. It's a shame how they gutted the game so much lately. Last I heard you can get to cap in a day or 2 when It used to take some people YEARS.
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post #93 of 94
The last time I played a genuinely grindy game was Runescape back in 2004-2006.
The fastest and most effective way to level up combat skills was to lock yourself in a dungeon and kill the same mobs thousands/tens of thousands of times, occasionally going back to the bank to re-stock on food/arrows/whatever.
The most effective way to level up secondary skills was to craft the same low-level item a million times. The game encouraged it and revolved around it.

Ultimately the game had you doing what a basic (and I'm talking VERY basic) auto-clicking/macro program could do.
Not 10 times, not 100 times, literally thousands (or tens of thousands) of times. You would spend hours on XP calculators, setting a level goal, working out how many of what you had to kill/craft, how much XP you were gaining per hour, etc and then crawl towards your goal one inch at a time by following a strict routine.

That is my definition of a true grind.

And frankly I'm glad that kind of grinding is dead in current-generation MMORPG's. Now we still have minor grinds, although with far more complex and interesting tasks like quests or events.

I heard at level 80 in GW2 in order to craft legendaries there is a pretty crazy amount of grinding needed. Like 200-400+ hours apparently.
Edited by Tippy - 10/7/12 at 11:35pm
post #94 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Let's have a history lesson on the term "grind". The term has changed meaning in recent years - but by the common definition, a grind is doing the same activity repeatedly, such as killing the same mob 4000 times to gain experience. That is my definition of grind, and neither GW2 or WoW have this. They both make the pursuit of character progression fun with varied quests, interesting dungeons, and what not. It is never a repetitive, kill the same mob 4000 times type of deal.
Either way, it sounds like RPGs are not for you. And that's cool. Yet, your statement about grind is so wrong when it comes to modern MMOs. When I think of "grind" I think of early everquest which was a great game at the time, yet a lot of activities were repetetive. MMOs have come a long way in this respect - they are a lot more interesting and fun (to me). WoW gives you many options to get gear, if you want to pvp? fine, do that. Pve? Great, tons of raids in the game to do that. Do you want to quest? You can do this as well. GW2 is similar as well, there are a lot of methods for the same goal.
When I hear someone complain of grind I have to wonder what freaking game they're playing. The term "grind" originated from games like Final Fantasy online or everquest - which while being great games for their timeframe, had a lot of repetitive activities. Modern MMOs have improved on this greatly. I guess the definition of grind is radically different than it was in the past - in any case, it sounds like you should stick to action games and never touch a RPG.

rpg literally means "role playing game." so to me any game that has a strong story component, character progression (in terms of story), a character with abilities you can ideally build and customize, and ideally a unique and interesting world to explore is an rpg. grinding is not required to have character customization and development, gw2 shows. whereas with wow, to me that was what defined a lot of the game. grinding is there with gw2 if you want it, but not required.

so really i'm not against grinding for those who want to do so, with a few caveats. 1. i don't think it should affect pvp 2. i don't think it should required to play through the game 3. i don't thinking grinding and getting gear should take the place of skill and in depth gameplay.

my favorite recent rpgs are demon's souls and skyrim. the both have grinding elements (demon's souls is a lot more annoying in the regard because of the massive randomness of item drops etc), but it's somewhat limited and you can see most of the game by simply playing through the story. what sets them apart is there improved and interesting combat systems over traditional rpg. additionally, the limited the importance of gear by increasing depth and realism of gameplay. instead of getting a "dodge" chance, you have more control over your character and dodging is up to. you have to dodge, you have to aim your ranged attacks, you have to time your attacks to stun your opponent physics plays a more important role. it's not like wow where you memorize a sequence of buttons and press them in that order and get a kill.

to me old style rpgs were a product of technological limitations. traditional jrpgs definitely look that way at least-heck traditional mmos were probably designed the same way. to limit the amount of data and stress on the servers with large amounts of characters, they couldn't have real time combat, it would have been too much. with increased graphics and processing power you have the potential of creating more unique, involving, realistic worlds and characters which to me is what an rpg is all about
Edited by perfectblade - 10/8/12 at 7:44am
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