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[Anandtech] Intel's Haswell Architecture Analyzed: Building a New PC and a New Intel - Page 11

post #101 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post

If I didn't read the article how'd I know about the % figures? How about you say something helpful and relevant instead of repeating what I put and get off your horse.
and if it's not about performance in existing applications, why would anyone buy a chip that doesn't go faster in stuffs that's already out? it'll be faster in future stuffs you say? oh ok i'll wait until such future stuffs is released before I buy it.
look at bulldozer. its "future stuffs" don't even exist and it's already obsolete. either now or never.
I'm completely happy that Intel is focusing on graphics performance and power consumption. But that doesn't give them an excuse to slack off on their bread-and-butter CPU cores. I hope they don't become another AMD with fail CPU saved by a decent GPU.

The number's been tossed around before the article.

And hey, if you only care about performance in existing applications, that's fine. From Intel's perspective, that line of thinking is a good way to go bankrupt, and quick.
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post #102 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post

If I didn't read the article how'd I know about the % figures? How about you say something helpful and relevant instead of repeating what I put and get off your horse.
and if it's not about performance in existing applications, why would anyone buy a chip that doesn't go faster in stuffs that's already out? it'll be faster in future stuffs you say? oh ok i'll wait until such future stuffs is released before I buy it.
look at bulldozer. its "future stuffs" don't even exist and it's already obsolete. either now or never.
I'm completely happy that Intel is focusing on graphics performance and power consumption. But that doesn't give them an excuse to slack off on their bread-and-butter CPU cores. I hope they don't become another AMD with fail CPU saved by a decent GPU.

Their bread and butter is being threatened by mobile computing. Does anyone besides power users buy desktops these days? Desktops don't even get retail space at stores like best buy now, it is all laptop,macbook, and ultrabook. Basically, very few people buy anything but tablets and ultrabooks/laptops these days. THAT is where the money is, and if intel focuses on IPC improvements for desktop they will be irrelevant in 5 years. They have to focus on graphics performance and power usage, and that is exactly what they're doing with haswell.
post #103 of 140
with haswell and amd next i feel people will stay away from desktop ,since it will be as powerfull as 5770 at worst.plus with a game as forgiving as gw2 and looking so awsome?why would user buy next gen deztop.been on w7 64 bit and my next os will probably w8 32 bit mobile.(*** is wrong with this picture we re goig backward in technology)
post #104 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3930K View Post

Dude, why do you like MIPS so much? Every thread where there could be a slim chance MIPS would be better you jump at it, trying to convince everyone into MIPS.
In Android you may be able to use it, as most programs are Dalvik-based. Anything else? You'd need to recompile it for MIPS.

I've looked at many architectures and believe it to be the best non-specialized architecture. (Note: I don't have any relationship with MIPS nor do I particularly like the corporation; though it's worth noting that the fundamental ISA is patent free). I would suggest that you study computer architecture as then you'll know why I prefer MIPS over x86 or ARM. MIPS literally changed the entire industry (in truth, the Berkley RISC project was happening at the same time, but SPARC (the resulting commercial ISA) differed primarily on the use of the horrendous register window, so MIPS beat it in this major area making SPARC the one big RISC design to use register windows and thus the only Berkley based design). MIPS is the reason why architectures like ARM exist and the reason why x86 now has a RISC micro-op system. All post-MIPS ISA basically amount to specialized MIPS with some changes here or there. For example ARM designers left out things to save power and space (the biggest being it not having either instruction registers nor 32 registers). ARM is attempting to make up for these and other performance trade-offs by modeling the 64-bit ARM ISA on MIPS (which strongly indicates that maybe MIPS had it right in the first place as it didn't need these changes and still beats ARM designs in total power usage and power/performance). I suppose that ARM being designed on a clock while MIPS was made by researchers and government grant money makes a difference. Even when China had their pick of any architecture they wanted (licensing wasn't an issue as they weren't paying anyway), their researchers chose MIPS as it is the closest to one architecture that truly works everywhere.

In short, the only problem with MIPS is x86 software lockin and people who don't know much about computer architecture making architecture decisions or judgements. If you have a logical argument as to why the ISA is inferior, I'm interested; if not, my posts can serve to inform you.

ARM has traditionally seen MIPS as there greatest competitor, so any discussion about ARM (like the one I was having about ARM and Apple) isn't too far from a discussion of MIPS.

Since android is dalvik-based and dalvik is a VM, porting dalvik apps only requires that the DVM be ported to MIPS, something that has already been done. Compiling for either MIPS or ARM requires a recompilation, but similarities mean that custom code is almost never required.
Edited by hajile - 10/6/12 at 9:35pm
post #105 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

And still they insist in the ultrabooks.
Geez! They're DEAD!! They don't sell crap, their performance is seriously lacking, their battery duration is below notebooks, and their weight savings... Well, they just aren't there.

Wait, what? When did this happen, because I see people jamming around with them all over?
    
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post #106 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3930K View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Not really, Apple are designing their own chips now (See: The A6) and have done architecture switches before...Samsung, Dell, HP, etc are all tied to x86 for the foreseeable future.
I posted about the theoretical idea of replacing x86 with MIPS in another post here.

MIPS designers already have very powerful 64-bit designs (as my linked post above describes, they stomp x86 in overall float power, performance/watt, and IPC while on 65nm. We're talking 2.5x the power of the fastest quad-core desktop ivy bridge with a tdp low enough to put in a laptop). A6 is ARM. The 64-bit ARM spec was only completed a couple of months ago (unlike a software spec like HTML5, it's not really possible to begin with an incomplete ISA spec). Project Denver likely has a 64-bit chip in the pipes, but it's still years away. Even if Apple had started a year ago (months before final spec), they would be three to five years away from release. Unless Apple buys MIPS, they are also stuck with either Intel or AMD (I suspect a move to the latter next year).
Dude, why do you like MIPS so much? Every thread where there could be a slim chance MIPS would be better you jump at it, trying to convince everyone into MIPS.

In Android you may be able to use it, as most programs are Dalvik-based. Anything else? You'd need to recompile it for MIPS.

In this case I think it's semi-realistic, it provides great performance for the power consumption and it's not like Apple have switched architectures twice now. (Moto 6800 to PowerPC to x86)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile View Post

Since android is dalvik-based and dalvik is a VM, porting dalvik apps only requires that the DVM be ported to MIPS, something that has already been done. Compiling for either MIPS or ARM requires a recompilation, but similarities mean that custom code is almost never required.

A few larger apps are written in other languages with only parts written in Dalvik, for example Firefox and QuickOffice are written in C (iirc) but with the GUI rendering done in Dalvik, meaning it won't work on x86 or MIPS without being recompiled on those CPUs.
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post #107 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Wait, what? When did this happen, because I see people jamming around with them all over?

They're not dead, more likely they haven't caught on yet. Like I posted earlier, several articles came out showing that sales are no where near the analysts predictions. Indenpendent anylists have now revised their shipments to be lower then 50% of the origional projections for 2012 and they're not even the same ballpark of Intel's 2012 predictions.
post #108 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3930K View Post

Dude, why do you like MIPS so much? Every thread where there could be a slim chance MIPS would be better you jump at it, trying to convince everyone into MIPS.
In Android you may be able to use it, as most programs are Dalvik-based. Anything else? You'd need to recompile it for MIPS.

I've looked at many architectures and believe it to be the best non-specialized architecture. (Note: I don't have any relationship with MIPS nor do I particularly like the corporation; though it's worth noting that the fundamental ISA is patent free). I would suggest that you study computer architecture as then you'll know why I prefer MIPS over x86 or ARM. MIPS literally changed the entire industry (in truth, the Berkley RISC project was happening at the same time, but SPARC (the resulting commercial ISA) differed primarily on the use of the horrendous register window, so MIPS beat it in this major area making SPARC the one big RISC design to use register windows and thus the only Berkley based design). MIPS is the reason why architectures like ARM exist and the reason why x86 now has a RISC micro-op system. All post-MIPS ISA basically amount to specialized MIPS with some changes here or there. For example ARM designers left out things to save power and space (the biggest being it not having either instruction registers nor 32 registers). ARM is attempting to make up for these and other performance trade-offs by modeling the 64-bit ARM ISA on MIPS (which strongly indicates that maybe MIPS had it right in the first place as it didn't need these changes and still beats ARM designs in total power usage and power/performance). I suppose that ARM being designed on a clock while MIPS was made by researchers and government grant money makes a difference. Even when China had their pick of any architecture they wanted (licensing wasn't an issue as they weren't paying anyway), their researchers chose MIPS as it is the closest to one architecture that truly works everywhere.

In short, the only problem with MIPS is x86 software lockin and people who don't know much about computer architecture making architecture decisions or judgements. If you have a logical argument as to why the ISA is inferior, I'm interested; if not, my posts can serve to inform you.

ARM has traditionally seen MIPS as there greatest competitor, so any discussion about ARM (like the one I was having about ARM and Apple) isn't too far from a discussion of MIPS.

Since android is dalvik-based and dalvik is a VM, porting dalvik apps only requires that the DVM be ported to MIPS, something that has already been done. Compiling for either MIPS or ARM requires a recompilation, but similarities mean that custom code is almost never required.
Thank you. rep+
post #109 of 140
Ok where is my mips gaming desktop?where is my opencl powered linux gaming os?where is my opencl version of gw2?i am willing to chanceto your system but i doubt anycan make it happen.(just a random exemple.just trade opencl and linux for mips uber solution you talk about)
Edited by drbaltazar - 10/7/12 at 4:53am
post #110 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbaltazar View Post

Ok where is my mips gaming desktop?where is my opencl powered linux gaming os?where is my opencl version of gw2?i am willing to chanceto your system but i doubt anycan make it happen.(just a random exemple.just trade opencl and linux for mips uber solution you talk about)
Quote:
In short, the only problem with MIPS is x86 software lockin and people who don't know much about computer architecture making architecture decisions or judgements. If you have a logical argument as to why the ISA is inferior, I'm interested; if not, my posts can serve to inform you.

That stated, let's lay our hostility aside and I'll explain a little to you. First, POWER was based off MIPS (it was changed to avoid patents, but made some trade-offs). POWER and MIPS have powered the past 20 years worth of gaming consoles. You use MIPS chips every day in embedded applications everywhere. China is considering making MIPS (or a similar design) into it's national (required to be used for everything) architecture. People already use Loongson-based computers there. MIPS powers most of the multi-million dollar routers that power the internet (because the massive Broadcom chips are both more energy efficient and much faster). MIPS used to hold all the top supercomputer records. You probably have more non-x86 compute power around your house than the x86 chip in your gaming rig.

What happened? In short, Intel conned everyone into dropping their RISC architectures (only x86 in PC's was CISC, everything else was SPARC, POWER, MIPS, PA-RISC, or Alpha) in favor of EPIC (itanium). They almost completely dropped development (Or in the case of MIPS, redirected to the embedded market) to support the Itanic while Intel didn't stop x86 development. When Itanic failed to meet promised performance, Intel had a way out with the even more dominant x86 while everyone else was years behind in R&D.

Linux and OpenCL are different topics than MIPS. MS has actively tried to stop Linux development. *NIX is everywhere. Not seeing it doesn't change that. MS and Intel have had a symbiotic relationship for years where each relies on the other for help locking out competitors. A change is coming. This union is finally dying. There's a chance to replace both with better alternatives. Intel's trying to stay relevant with Atom and MS is trying with Windows 8.

OpenCL's problem is that thinking in parallel is often counterintuitive to normal programming methods. A much more intelligent (than average) programmer is needed, but such "rock star" programmer's are in short supply. Such programmers are also in short supply elsewhere, but harder topics such as parallel programming simply can't be done by poor programmers and fixed later.
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