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[Official] Delidded Club / Guide - Page 1349

post #13481 of 33696
Quote:
Pll should be at 1.8 normally the lower you go could cause instability

That has got to be the worst post I've ever seen on OCN. I know I'm an idiot but I have a faint clue of what I'm doing here, yes, I'm aware lower voltages may cause stability. You did read my post right, where I said I was running 24+ hours of prime95, and that 1.6v lasted over 15 hours just fine?

Most guides recommend lowering PLL for temps, btw. They just don't say what to lower it to, what most people set it to, etc. There's a million posts and tables and data on what vcore you should expect for X frequency, but nothing on PLL, VTT, or IMC voltages.
Quote:
You don't have to worry about hurting anything if you are being careful.

The die is metal, it's not fragile by any means. You need to use sandpaper to get through it, and there are people who even lap their dies. The die you see is just another integrated heatspreader, actually. There's no scratching you can do unless you use something very metal or hard, but towels, fingernails, plastic, isn't going to scratch anything and you dont even have to be careful!

Lots of alcohol and paper towel, napkins, coffee filter, ez to come off.
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post #13482 of 33696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

My 5ghz@+.285v offset (1.488v, 1.5 on DMM), Turbo LLC, with RAM oc (2400 8-12-8-28 with very tigh secondary/tertiary) lasted for 15 hours in p95 (i think i acidentally cut the power, not that it failed)

Have any of you guys played changed your PLL, VTT, or IMC voltages?

I set PLL to 1.5 and i think it caused WHEA errors (wow, i did not realize that kernel-WHEA and whea-logger errors in events log were signs of instability, that probably means a bunch of 24 hour prime95 stable overclocks ive done and others have done werent really stable we just didnt realize there were errors lol) so I changed it to 1.6 and seems okay.

Right now I'm trying to add reduced VTT/IMC voltages to the mix, it seems by reducing both from stock by .05v, from 1.05/.925 to 1.00/.875 has helped with temps a few degrees, and .985/.860 wasn't stable.

Just curious what others have done with their other voltages, what they normally get and such.

I'd stick with default pll voltage, in my experience it did nothing but cause instability and WHEA errors.
If anything you need to up some voltages like imc a few notches and maybe vtt too.
Don't go overboard, just give them a healthy boost, cause you're pushing a heavy ram oc there. No need to get "better" temps with a delidded chip. It won't make a difference temp wise...If you were to freeze the chip, then THAT would definitely make a difference allowing you to run much lower vcore and imc/vtt.
EDIT: Refer to Sin's chart showing safe vtt and imc voltages on air. That's more dangerous stuff than vcore is, you'll instantly degrade your memory controller or whack your chip if you push too hard on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

That has got to be the worst post I've ever seen on OCN. I know I'm an idiot but I have a faint clue of what I'm doing here, yes, I'm aware lower voltages may cause stability. You did read my post right, where I said I was running 24+ hours of prime95, and that 1.6v lasted over 15 hours just fine?

Most guides recommend lowering PLL for temps, btw. They just don't say what to lower it to, what most people set it to, etc. There's a million posts and tables and data on what vcore you should expect for X frequency, but nothing on PLL, VTT, or IMC voltages.
The die is metal, it's not fragile by any means. You need to use sandpaper to get through it, and there are people who even lap their dies. The die you see is just another integrated heatspreader, actually. There's no scratching you can do unless you use something very metal or hard, but towels, fingernails, plastic, isn't going to scratch anything and you dont even have to be careful!

Lots of alcohol and paper towel, napkins, coffee filter, ez to come off.

Belial, you're kinda moody today, aren't ya? Don't jump on the guy like that, he was kinda brief that's all but I agree with his suggestion.
And the die is not metal, it's silicon, like some kind of glass type thing with a clear smooth mirrorlike finish at the top, definitely not metal.
post #13483 of 33696
Quote:
I'd stick with default pll voltage, in my experience it did nothing but cause instability and WHEA errors.
If anything you need to up some voltages like imc a few notches and maybe vtt too.
Don't go overboard, just give them a healthy boost, cause you're pushing a heavy ram oc there. No need to get "better" temps with a delidded chip. It won't make a difference temp wise...If you were to freeze the chip, then THAT would definitely make a difference allowing you to run much lower vcore and imc/vtt.
EDIT: Refer to Sin's chart showing safe vtt and imc voltages on air. That's more dangerous stuff than vcore is, you'll instantly degrade your memory controller or whack your chip if you push too hard on them.

My RAM oc (2400, cl8-12-8-28 tight second and thirds) was 24 hours stable at the stock vtt/imc. From what I've seen it's more like 2600+ that really needs a bump in those voltages, although I've definitely heard 2400 needing it but I think 2400 is right on the limit. Maybe my imc is as good as you say it is, right ^^

Now it's a matter of getting my CPU stable, and I've been running all cpu tests with that ram oc (which i let run for 30 hours prime95, no problem once i set the dram references to auto and didn't try to push my thirds further than what they default to at 1333, which already is much tighter than their defaults at 2400).

I'm pretty sure +.285v offset = 1.488v is 24 hour prime95 stable but at ~15th hour my pc shutdown. I think it was because my hwinfo 96*C max temp shutdown kicked in, around that time my oven had filled the apartment with smoke when it was opened and the grill i had out front the door blew everything into the house when i moved some charcoal around and suddenly created a blaze of heat. I think that hot air might have gotten sucked in by the 10 fans on my system and got it a little hot lol. I mean I'm not sure why it shutdown, almost all resets and such when overclocking and unstable has always resulted in a reset, not a hard shutdown, so thats why i think it was the temps.

Which is why I'm trying to get my temps a bit lower. Now I'm pretty sure even in summer it wont get that hot and once im done with this stress testing I wont be within 20*C of my max temp on small fft so I'm not worried about the temps being bad, but I mean if I'm going for a perfect perfect overclock, then all my voltages should be as low as possible (as in .28 causes whea errors) while clocks should be as high as possible, and that's what I'm going for.

I've seen Sin's chart and guide, he clearly gives maxes and such, but he does not give minimums and he does say to reduce PLL voltage and 'if necessary' reduce vtt/imc (it's not necessary but why not, right?).

But really, what IS your experience with PLL? What happened? Becuase I'm not getting WHEA errors even after 12+ hours of prime95 on 1.6v PLL. Then again I've heard a few people mention that PLL is more tied with sleep, idle stability, not load stability.
Quote:
Belial, you're kinda moody today, aren't ya? Don't jump on the guy like that, he was kinda brief that's all but I agree with his suggestion.
And the die is not metal, it's silicon, like some kind of glass type thing with a clear smooth mirrorlike finish at the top, definitely not metal.

I've read a few reports of people who've messed with PLL that they've gone as low as 1.5v, but i think that's for around the 4.5ghz range and that higher up you need a bit more pll, and i think i read one guy was running like 1.2pll or something 'insane' like that (insane but i have no frame of reference here what people usually set PLL) it still isn't clear to me, like.... are 'good' chips able to run like 1.5, 1.4v pll? What if my chip is a 'bad' chip, should I run pll more like 1.7, 1.8/stock? Some guy even mentioned that he wasnt able to overclock past like 4.5 until he reduced his PLL drastically, at which point he was able to hit like a way higher overclock (sorry for vagueries, but i believe the guy heads one of the clubs around here.... forgot which club i saw it in, the asrock club maybe?).

I dont think i've ever heard anyone raise their PLL voltage from stock though except in extreme LN2 stuff, and it's more in regards to bclk tuning.

which brings me to the question, does anyone here mess with bclk for 24/7 overclock? I heard one guy here recently said he got 5ghz much easier by using bclk + multi instead of multi alone, which goes in contrast with sin saying dont ever touch bclk, it degrades gpu ssd everything, omg it's so dangerous (but does he mean like for ln2, 105+, or is he also talking about just 101 bclk, etc?).
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post #13484 of 33696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

My RAM oc (2400, cl8-12-8-28 tight second and thirds) was 24 hours stable at the stock vtt/imc. From what I've seen it's more like 2600+ that really needs a bump in those voltages, although I've definitely heard 2400 needing it but I think 2400 is right on the limit. Maybe my imc is as good as you say it is, right ^^

Now it's a matter of getting my CPU stable, and I've been running all cpu tests with that ram oc (which i let run for 30 hours prime95, no problem once i set the dram references to auto and didn't try to push my thirds further than what they default to at 1333, which already is much tighter than their defaults at 2400).

I'm pretty sure +.285v offset = 1.488v is 24 hour prime95 stable but at ~15th hour my pc shutdown. I think it was because my hwinfo 96*C max temp shutdown kicked in, around that time my oven had filled the apartment with smoke when it was opened and the grill i had out front the door blew everything into the house when i moved some charcoal around and suddenly created a blaze of heat. I think that hot air might have gotten sucked in by the 10 fans on my system and got it a little hot lol. I mean I'm not sure why it shutdown, almost all resets and such when overclocking and unstable has always resulted in a reset, not a hard shutdown, so thats why i think it was the temps.

Which is why I'm trying to get my temps a bit lower. Now I'm pretty sure even in summer it wont get that hot and once im done with this stress testing I wont be within 20*C of my max temp on small fft so I'm not worried about the temps being bad, but I mean if I'm going for a perfect perfect overclock, then all my voltages should be as low as possible (as in .28 causes whea errors) while clocks should be as high as possible, and that's what I'm going for.

I've seen Sin's chart and guide, he clearly gives maxes and such, but he does not give minimums and he does say to reduce PLL voltage and 'if necessary' reduce vtt/imc (it's not necessary but why not, right?).

But really, what IS your experience with PLL? What happened? Becuase I'm not getting WHEA errors even after 12+ hours of prime95 on 1.6v PLL. Then again I've heard a few people mention that PLL is more tied with sleep, idle stability, not load stability.
I've read a few reports of people who've messed with PLL that they've gone as low as 1.5v, but i think that's for around the 4.5ghz range and that higher up you need a bit more pll, and i think i read one guy was running like 1.2pll or something 'insane' like that (insane but i have no frame of reference here what people usually set PLL) it still isn't clear to me, like.... are 'good' chips able to run like 1.5, 1.4v pll? What if my chip is a 'bad' chip, should I run pll more like 1.7, 1.8/stock? Some guy even mentioned that he wasnt able to overclock past like 4.5 until he reduced his PLL drastically, at which point he was able to hit like a way higher overclock (sorry for vagueries, but i believe the guy heads one of the clubs around here.... forgot which club i saw it in, the asrock club maybe?).

I dont think i've ever heard anyone raise their PLL voltage from stock though except in extreme LN2 stuff, and it's more in regards to bclk tuning.

which brings me to the question, does anyone here mess with bclk for 24/7 overclock? I heard one guy here recently said he got 5ghz much easier by using bclk + multi instead of multi alone, which goes in contrast with sin saying dont ever touch bclk, it degrades gpu ssd everything, omg it's so dangerous (but does he mean like for ln2, 105+, or is he also talking about just 101 bclk, etc?).

Forget bclk, no point in messing with it for 24/7 oc's really.
Second, pll overvoltage is not pll voltage. Internal pll overvoltage enabled messes with sleep but gives greater stability at higher than 4.6ghz oc's, so you NEED to have that enabled instead of auto in the bios.
post #13485 of 33696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joa3d43 View Post

...the joys of deliddedness...biggrin.gif
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
...as tricky as delidding can be, it certainly has its upsides...when I was first sent to this thread by PCWargamer, I thought these folks are 'nuts'...better get a chastity belt for my CPU socket before I do something stupid - like take a razor blade to a perfectly good CPU that ran fast at low 'v' @ 5GHz plus...

...well, I did something stupid, and there was also blood, a few scratches and divine intervention smile.gif What it did was to unleash a whole new performance envelope because now I could deal with temps when doing extensive, longer bench runs...a few more investments (ROG Maximums V Extreme, custom water loop etc) enabled more performance - but by far the biggest 'enabler for the results below' was the delidding...so thanks Valgaur for running a nice thread with great info which really helped get me there...smile.gif

...joined HWBot just two days ago, and yet got well over 20 world records in the enthusiast class for my video setup, though some extended beyond that...most of the time, my scores are smack in the middle of overclocked 680ies and 7970ies - and thanks to delidding, I can now compete against 3930ies 6 core / 12 thread machines running @ 5 GHz. biggrin.gif

The best part is that in those two days, I got over a 100 points for the Overclock.net team at HWbot ...a few more runs left for tomorrow - and this system is not yet fully maxed as I have to lap and straighten out a slightly crooked IHS, not to mention one of the 4 GPUs which really should be RMA'ed because of power leakage and does not perform well at all...mad.gif

...so if you are considering delidding, carefully study the process, cost and benefits - and ENJOY the outcome (hopefully)...either way, best of luck thumb.gif


Thanks, you've knocked my down a rung on some of the GTX670 benchmark tables biggrin.gif
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post #13486 of 33696
Quote:
Forget bclk, no point in messing with it for 24/7 oc's really.
Second, pll overvoltage is not pll voltage. Internal pll overvoltage enabled messes with sleep but gives greater stability at higher than 4.6ghz oc's, so you NEED to have that enabled instead of auto in the bios.

Why would there not be a point in messing with bclk? The point is always for a higher and higher overclock, no? I mean I just dont understand what or if there are dangers with a low bclk of like 101, 102, and, why can't you run like 110+ if your board is good enough to do so. I'd much rather have 5010mhz speed than 5000.

Yes, I know about pll overvoltage, I'm definitely not confusing the two, and I do have pll overvoltage enabled. i know they are two totally separate things. or there is some connection but yea practically they are entirely different.
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post #13487 of 33696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

Why would there not be a point in messing with bclk? The point is always for a higher and higher overclock, no? I mean I just dont understand what or if there are dangers with a low bclk of like 101, 102, and, why can't you run like 110+ if your board is good enough to do so. I'd much rather have 5010mhz speed than 5000.

Yes, I know about pll overvoltage, I'm definitely not confusing the two, and I do have pll overvoltage enabled. i know they are two totally separate things. or there is some connection but yea practically they are entirely different.

No connection other than the name...

" Raja@ASUS ASUS Community Support, 1.9 Years

Status: Raja@ASUS is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambobuzzz View Post
Sorry, didn't understand that much. With 1.5v for CPU PLL everything runs smooth, burning programms run without any errors. I just thought lower is better like for vcore...
Should I raise it to it's default ?

May I ask a little off topic question ? On P8Z68-V Pro what's the difference between the red and black USB 2.0 ports ? They are all connected to Intel controller right ? Is there any technical difference ?
You should use PLL at default on this architecture - the clocking limitations of this architecture are very bound to the right PLL voltage level (hence the internal PLL OV option working the way it does). I think the reason you are having to offset the DQ and CMD refs is to compensate for any timing mismatch caused in the clock distribution network within the CPU due to a low PLL voltage.

So yes, try default of 1.8V for PLL and see if you still need DQ and CMD ref offset for S3 resume.

-Raja " Source

Straight from Asus, fix pll at 1.8v and forget it wink.gif

And, fsb 110mhz is only possible with cpu running below -50c so no go. Trust me, you don't wanna run into stupid risks with little to no benefit for your goals.
Now if you are benching, running 3dm11 or 3dm05 or Aquamark, then by all means go for the absolute max oc in every aspect. tongue.gif
post #13488 of 33696
Quote:
Originally Posted by kesawi View Post

Thanks, you've knocked my down a rung on some of the GTX670 benchmark tables biggrin.gif


...OOOps - didn't even know you were in there...nothing personal biggrin.gif ....in most of these I was going up against a few guys with clocked-up 3930Ks / 3960Xs from the US and Europe. What I found particularly amusing is that I seem to be the only guy at HWbot who ran and submitted a quad-SLI Firestrike Extreme overall (independent of the card make)...everybody else knew better biggrin.gif ...that bench needs some serious re-writing for tri-SLI and Quad-SLI

...thinking of switching either to Titan's or s.th. like it...also looking at memory benches (which I have never run before).
post #13489 of 33696
Good to see you enjoying the sport Joa...have fun with ram!
post #13490 of 33696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

My RAM oc (2400, cl8-12-8-28 tight second and thirds) was 24 hours stable at the stock vtt/imc. From what I've seen it's more like 2600+ that really needs a bump in those voltages, although I've definitely heard 2400 needing it but I think 2400 is right on the limit. Maybe my imc is as good as you say it is, right ^^

Now it's a matter of getting my CPU stable, and I've been running all cpu tests with that ram oc (which i let run for 30 hours prime95, no problem once i set the dram references to auto and didn't try to push my thirds further than what they default to at 1333, which already is much tighter than their defaults at 2400).

I'm pretty sure +.285v offset = 1.488v is 24 hour prime95 stable but at ~15th hour my pc shutdown. I think it was because my hwinfo 96*C max temp shutdown kicked in, around that time my oven had filled the apartment with smoke when it was opened and the grill i had out front the door blew everything into the house when i moved some charcoal around and suddenly created a blaze of heat. I think that hot air might have gotten sucked in by the 10 fans on my system and got it a little hot lol. I mean I'm not sure why it shutdown, almost all resets and such when overclocking and unstable has always resulted in a reset, not a hard shutdown, so thats why i think it was the temps.

Which is why I'm trying to get my temps a bit lower. Now I'm pretty sure even in summer it wont get that hot and once im done with this stress testing I wont be within 20*C of my max temp on small fft so I'm not worried about the temps being bad, but I mean if I'm going for a perfect perfect overclock, then all my voltages should be as low as possible (as in .28 causes whea errors) while clocks should be as high as possible, and that's what I'm going for.

I've seen Sin's chart and guide, he clearly gives maxes and such, but he does not give minimums and he does say to reduce PLL voltage and 'if necessary' reduce vtt/imc (it's not necessary but why not, right?).

But really, what IS your experience with PLL? What happened? Becuase I'm not getting WHEA errors even after 12+ hours of prime95 on 1.6v PLL. Then again I've heard a few people mention that PLL is more tied with sleep, idle stability, not load stability.
I've read a few reports of people who've messed with PLL that they've gone as low as 1.5v, but i think that's for around the 4.5ghz range and that higher up you need a bit more pll, and i think i read one guy was running like 1.2pll or something 'insane' like that (insane but i have no frame of reference here what people usually set PLL) it still isn't clear to me, like.... are 'good' chips able to run like 1.5, 1.4v pll? What if my chip is a 'bad' chip, should I run pll more like 1.7, 1.8/stock? Some guy even mentioned that he wasnt able to overclock past like 4.5 until he reduced his PLL drastically, at which point he was able to hit like a way higher overclock (sorry for vagueries, but i believe the guy heads one of the clubs around here.... forgot which club i saw it in, the asrock club maybe?).

I dont think i've ever heard anyone raise their PLL voltage from stock though except in extreme LN2 stuff, and it's more in regards to bclk tuning.

which brings me to the question, does anyone here mess with bclk for 24/7 overclock? I heard one guy here recently said he got 5ghz much easier by using bclk + multi instead of multi alone, which goes in contrast with sin saying dont ever touch bclk, it degrades gpu ssd everything, omg it's so dangerous (but does he mean like for ln2, 105+, or is he also talking about just 101 bclk, etc?).

I've played with lowering cpu pll but saw no no point in it, didn't make anything more stable, didn't make a difference for temps, didn't seem top make a difference to anything. I pretty much just leave it alone except for ln2, where I do play with raised pll voltage a bit.

For bclk I do play with it a fair amount, although mostly for sub-zero temps where raising the bclk raises the temperature the cpu cold boot bugs. I have stability tested up to 110 bclk but at the time it was running 24/7 at -100° so needed at least 105 bclk to even POST, & it wasn't a setup I planned to run for more than a week or so.
Other than that bclk is mostly for fine tuning memory & benchmarking when air & water cooled, I have used bclk higher than stock on pretty much every cpu I've had in the last few years & have yet to damage any hardware with the increased pci-e frequency. At the worst I've just corrupted my OS when trying too high.
For 24/7 it don't think it would hurt to up the bclk a bit, I completely understand wanting those extra mhz, but I change my OC when I want more & change it back for just web browsing. Bios profiles are handy that way.
It can be easier to get a higher clock with bclk + multi, when at the point where the next multi needs too big a voltage bump to get to desktop, but that is generally around a point that is too much for 24/7 stable.
    
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