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[Official] Delidded Club / Guide - Page 139

post #1381 of 33683
Quote:
Originally Posted by feniks View Post

4.9GHz with Ultra High 75% LLC and Optimized Phase control it seems it runs fine with +0.200
mind that I use CPU VRM running at my board's max 500KHz manually (it stays cool enough) as opposed to automatic 300KHz (core unstable with it).

a, thanks,
i think cpu vrm on gigabyte z77x is called pwm phase control, i have 2 options there,
but hardly have to change it, mobo does most things well on auto, and i dont have to remember settings..lol

i was wondering about my 4.8ghz oc, and the offset i need for it to be stable,
i thought it was way to high, something like +0.1440v
and idle voltage goes up too with + offset..
so looks like im good right..
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post #1382 of 33683
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

a, thanks,
i think cpu vrm on gigabyte z77x is called pwm phase control, i have 2 options there,
but hardly have to change it, mobo does most things well on auto, and i dont have to remember settings..lol
i was wondering about my 4.8ghz oc, and the offset i need for it to be stable,
i thought it was way to high, something like +0.1440v
and idle voltage goes up too with + offset..
so looks like im good right..

possibly I mistake some of the names in ASUS Bios with some names I was used to in EVGA BIOS LOL! every board manufacturer uses slightly different nomenclature wink.gif

here, take a look at ASUS Maximus BIOS, the Digi+ Power Control screen is where I have those options:
http://rog.asus.com/136402012/maximus-v-motherboards/maximus-v-formula-overclocking-guide/6/

CPU PWM (the one with KHz settings) is called CPU Voltage frequency (auto/manual 300-500KHz)
the CPU Phase Control is the one with settings like Standard/Optimized/Extreme/Manual etc. by default it was Extreme, but some Asus ROG guide for using offsets suggested switching it to Optimized, so I did, not sure what the difference is though he he wink.gif

other than that, yeah offset alters all 4 stages of vcore: stabilized idle, before load (spike), stabilized under-load and after load (dip) vcore - so yeah it will increase idle voltage as well. hence why I stopped using Medium (25%) LLC at higher clocks, because the idle voltage was becoming simply too high (much higher offset needed for Med LLC as opposed to UH LLC).
Edited by feniks - 10/22/12 at 11:48am
post #1383 of 33683
Quote:
Originally Posted by feniks View Post

possibly I mistake some of the names in ASUS Bios with some names I was used to in EVGA BIOS LOL! every board manufacturer uses slightly different nomenclature wink.gif
here, take a look at ASUS Maximus BIOS, the Digi+ Power Control screen is where I have those options:
http://rog.asus.com/136402012/maximus-v-motherboards/maximus-v-formula-overclocking-guide/6/
CPU VRM (the one with KHz settings) is called CPU Voltage frequency (auto/manual 300-500KHz)
the CPU Phase Control is the one with settings like Standard/Optimized/Extreme/Manual etc. by default it was Extreme, but some Asus ROG guide for using offsets suggested switching it to Optimized, so I did, not sure what the difference is though he he wink.gif
other than that, yeah offset alters both idle, before load and under load vcore, so yeah it will increase idle voltage as well. hence why I stopped using Medium (25%) LLC at higher clocks, because the idle voltage was becoming simply too high (much higher offset needed for Med LLC as opposed to UH LLC).

ok, so i used turbo setting LLC on mine, i have 1 other setting above it, extreme,
so youre saying, if i up that to extreme, i need less offset?
srry if im rambling on about it, but it bugs me for a while now,
ive asked before, but didnt get a real good answer, thanks smile.gif

will try again with 4.8ghz, was stable at 1.420 fixed so,
wonder how it goes with offset 0.1440 , llc extreme, and if i can make it a daily oc again
because im curious also if it would degrade over time with that vcore, another long term test ..lol
Edited by VonDutch - 10/22/12 at 12:30pm
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post #1384 of 33683
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

o, it was called pump out effect? ..o well,
didnt look back to the posts where we talked about it,
you know where it was mentioned, or where we started talking about it?
maybe i have a idea..lol, "need more input, need more input"......

Well then, read through this whole thread as it is jam packed with lots of great stuff including: the gap issue instead of the TIM as the main IB temp problem, and the possible TIM "pump out" problem due to thermal dynamics over time, and much much more good stuff! Lots "more input" there for guys like you who love to learn! Well worth the time to read through IMHO.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855
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post #1385 of 33683
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCWargamer View Post

Well then, read through this whole thread as it is jam packed with lots of great stuff including: the gap issue instead of the TIM as the main IB temp problem, and the possible TIM "pump out" problem due to thermal dynamics over time, and much much more good stuff! Lots "more input" there for guys like you who love to learn! Well worth the time to read through IMHO.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855

yea., went over there already ..lol
was on this page where he mentioned something about it, but now much..
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34053262&postcount=572

i quote

Unfortunately we can't logic out our dilemma on that question because there are very reasonable rationale engineering reasons why the gap would be there on purpose, ranging from reduction to so called "pumping out" effects to reduction in thermal stress mismatch to simply building a buffer against variability in the IHS height (spec's cost money, loosen those specs and you can spend less money) and so on.

However we can test the question of "do temps rise over time because of the pumping-out effect" by way of using a TIM that purports to directly minimize and counteract such effects...and IC Diamond purports to accomplish exactly that.

end quote

and he responded to this quote,

quote
IC Diamond was originally designed as a high reliability T1 or T2compound for use between the IHS and CPU or between IHS and sink. IC Diamond is highly bulk loaded with over 92% micronized diamond particles, 94% fully bulk loaded counting other misc. particles. The highly loaded mix is required to limit pump out due to thermal cycling, basically the reasoning behind it is that it is harder to pump or bake out a solid than a lesser, lightly loaded liquid type compound grease.

Pictured below are some initial accelerated tests with some 3X10 glass slides, we are still roughing out procedures so take it for what it is. Attached picture of test result was run for 20 hours at 150C, the center picture ICD is IC Diamond. The others are commonly used retail performance pastes. Not a drop dead test but it does highlight the stability of ICD7. The competition compounds feature the formation of voids, and span the range of initial failure to complete failure. IC diamond was observed to have no visible points of failure under these conditions. The picture is back lighted so the void formation is clearly visible


end quote


i like to read over there, alot of useful info,
like here, ive learned alot over there too smile.gif
but im still a baby compared to the knowledge others have,
but i learn fast biggrin.gif
only a few months i really dig into ocing, my first ever intel processor, so happy with it ...lol

o, i dont know about the last quote, feels a bit like promo/marketing...idk..
Edited by VonDutch - 10/22/12 at 12:21pm
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post #1386 of 33683
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

yea., went over there already ..lol
was on this page where he mentioned something about it, but now much..
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34053262&postcount=572
i quote
Unfortunately we can't logic out our dilemma on that question because there are very reasonable rationale engineering reasons why the gap would be there on purpose, ranging from reduction to so called "pumping out" effects to reduction in thermal stress mismatch to simply building a buffer against variability in the IHS height (spec's cost money, loosen those specs and you can spend less money) and so on.
However we can test the question of "do temps rise over time because of the pumping-out effect" by way of using a TIM that purports to directly minimize and counteract such effects...and IC Diamond purports to accomplish exactly that.
end quote
and he responded to this quote,
quote
IC Diamond was originally designed as a high reliability T1 or T2compound for use between the IHS and CPU or between IHS and sink. IC Diamond is highly bulk loaded with over 92% micronized diamond particles, 94% fully bulk loaded counting other misc. particles. The highly loaded mix is required to limit pump out due to thermal cycling, basically the reasoning behind it is that it is harder to pump or bake out a solid than a lesser, lightly loaded liquid type compound grease.
Pictured below are some initial accelerated tests with some 3X10 glass slides, we are still roughing out procedures so take it for what it is. Attached picture of test result was run for 20 hours at 150C, the center picture ICD is IC Diamond. The others are commonly used retail performance pastes. Not a drop dead test but it does highlight the stability of ICD7. The competition compounds feature the formation of voids, and span the range of initial failure to complete failure. IC diamond was observed to have no visible points of failure under these conditions. The picture is back lighted so the void formation is clearly visible

end quote
i like to read over there, alot of useful info,
like here, ive learned alot over there too smile.gif
but im still a baby compared to the knowledge others have,
only a few months i really dig into ocing, my first ever intel processor, so happy with it ...lol

Same here Von. Love my Little Franky.
post #1387 of 33683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valgaur View Post

Same here Von. Love my Little Franky.

yea, wished everyone who has a 3570k or a 3770k could just de-lid it,
and really enjoy this chip, its great..i think one of the best intel made till now.
4.8ghz after delid is something most can get out of it with not to much trouble,
and the best lottery chips can go much higher, im sure..5.0-5.1ghz? beat that sb ..lol
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post #1388 of 33683
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

yea, wished everyone who has a 3570k or a 3770k could just de-lid it,
and really enjoy this chip, its great..i think one of the best intel made till now.
4.8ghz after delid is something most can get out of it with not to much trouble,
and the best lottery chips can go much higher, im sure..5.0-5.1ghz? beat that sb ..lol

That's why I want to get all of our results and make a formal complaint to Intel saying they messed up and we can prove it. And make next generation chips better for everyone.
post #1389 of 33683
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

ok, so i used turbo setting LLC on mine, i have 1 other setting above it, extreme,
so youre saying, if i up that to extreme, i need less offset?
srry if im rambling on about it, but it bugs me for a while now,
ive asked before, but didnt get a real good answer, thanks smile.gif
will try again with 4.8ghz, was stable at 1.420 fixed so,
wonder how it goes with offset 0.1440 , llc extreme, and if i can make it a daily oc again
because im curious also if it would degrade over time with that vcore, another long term test ..lol

yes, you will need less offset with higher LLC.
extreme = 100% LLC, it overshoots under load, all others dip under load, but mind that it may (and probably will) overshoot voltage under load.
usually 75% LLC which is one step below max is the most "flat", causing only a tiny dip of vcore under load versus idle (before downclocking occurs, best to observe on a fixed vcore), no overshoot.
as per degradation, LOL, don't ask me, I'm the guy who thinks experienced a bit of core degradation (0.024v across all speeds) in recent past wink.gif

EDIT:
just to make it easier to understand, try using fixed vcore (not offsets) with various LLC settings and have the cpu-z open and observe what happens to vcore at idle and under load and you will see what I am talking about. offsets make it only way more complicated to explain, because multiplier downclocks at idle to 16x along with dropping vcore to idle level and it all jumps up and down based on requested CPU load smile.gif
Edited by feniks - 10/22/12 at 1:30pm
post #1390 of 33683
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

yea., went over there already ..lol
was on this page where he mentioned something about it, but now much..
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34053262&postcount=572 Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
i quote
Unfortunately we can't logic out our dilemma on that question because there are very reasonable rationale engineering reasons why the gap would be there on purpose, ranging from reduction to so called "pumping out" effects to reduction in thermal stress mismatch to simply building a buffer against variability in the IHS height (spec's cost money, loosen those specs and you can spend less money) and so on.
However we can test the question of "do temps rise over time because of the pumping-out effect" by way of using a TIM that purports to directly minimize and counteract such effects...and IC Diamond purports to accomplish exactly that.
end quote
and he responded to this quote,
quote
IC Diamond was originally designed as a high reliability T1 or T2compound for use between the IHS and CPU or between IHS and sink. IC Diamond is highly bulk loaded with over 92% micronized diamond particles, 94% fully bulk loaded counting other misc. particles. The highly loaded mix is required to limit pump out due to thermal cycling, basically the reasoning behind it is that it is harder to pump or bake out a solid than a lesser, lightly loaded liquid type compound grease.
Pictured below are some initial accelerated tests with some 3X10 glass slides, we are still roughing out procedures so take it for what it is. Attached picture of test result was run for 20 hours at 150C, the center picture ICD is IC Diamond. The others are commonly used retail performance pastes. Not a drop dead test but it does highlight the stability of ICD7. The competition compounds feature the formation of voids, and span the range of initial failure to complete failure. IC diamond was observed to have no visible points of failure under these conditions. The picture is back lighted so the void formation is clearly visible

end quote
i like to read over there, alot of useful info,
like here, ive learned alot over there too smile.gif
but im still a baby compared to the knowledge others have,
but i learn fast biggrin.gif
only a few months i really dig into ocing, my first ever intel processor, so happy with it ...lol
o, i dont know about the last quote, feels a bit like promo/marketing...idk..

Yep. that is one of the places in that thread where they talk about the issue, and I think it comes up in a few more places, but it will take some time to verify how big an issue it is and with which TIMs.

Users of CL PRO have yet to note any temp degradation, and the same is true of ICD users. The ones who did notice a problem were using other TIMs like AS5 or Tuniq TX-3 or some such otherwise good TIMs IIRC. Cool issue really, and always more to learn! thumb.gif
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3770K 4.5GHz Asus Sabertooth Z77 EVGA Gtx560ti 448 FTW (2x SLI) 16GB Crucial Ballistic Tactical 1866 9-9-9-24 1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
120GB SanDisk Extreme SSD  1TB WD Black Caviar  2TB Seagate Barracuda TSSTcorp cd/dvd/bd 
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PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Coursair AX850 Cooler Master HAF 922  Kensington Yep! w/wristpad! 
AudioAudio
Xonar DX 7.1 PCIe Logitech Z906 5.1 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2500K 4.5GHZ 24/7 Ausu P8Z68-M Pro ATI 5770 Kingston Blue 1333 16GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Sandisk Extream 120GB SSD 750GB HDD CD/DVD Cooler Master 212 EVO 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
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CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Cooler Master 912 Of course! nope intergrated & inexpensive speakers... 
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3770K Gaming Sys
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3770K 4.5GHz Asus Sabertooth Z77 EVGA Gtx560ti 448 FTW (2x SLI) 16GB Crucial Ballistic Tactical 1866 9-9-9-24 1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
120GB SanDisk Extreme SSD  1TB WD Black Caviar  2TB Seagate Barracuda TSSTcorp cd/dvd/bd 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Coursair H80 Win7 64 Acer 27" Wide LCD HD Logitech Black Illuminated 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Coursair AX850 Cooler Master HAF 922  Kensington Yep! w/wristpad! 
AudioAudio
Xonar DX 7.1 PCIe Logitech Z906 5.1 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2500K 4.5GHZ 24/7 Ausu P8Z68-M Pro ATI 5770 Kingston Blue 1333 16GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Sandisk Extream 120GB SSD 750GB HDD CD/DVD Cooler Master 212 EVO 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
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