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[Official] Delidded Club / Guide - Page 15

post #141 of 34072
I delidded an i7 920 by sanding through the entire IHS; leaves a convenient shim around the die, but is extremely labor intensive. Unfortunately I scratched the die later on while relapping it and this scratch eventually grew into a crack that caused failure.

Anyway, with non-soldered IHS, it's much easier to cut them off.
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post #142 of 34072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

I delidded an i7 920 by sanding through the entire IHS; leaves a convenient shim around the die, but is extremely labor intensive. Unfortunately I scratched the die later on while relapping it and this scratch eventually grew into a crack that caused failure.
Anyway, with non-soldered IHS, it's much easier to cut them off.

I think people on this thread did that to their ivys also to avoid the risk involved with cutting the glue. I dont know if I saw that on this thread or some other thread though.
 
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post #143 of 34072
Very interesting results from a very good delid test of deliding and TIMs on an anandtech forum thread where the OP Idontcare found that the IB temp problem was not from the intell TIM at all, but from the gap between the die and IHS.

- if interested, see post #570 on link below:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855&page=23
_________________________________
And the results?
.....
And if we remove the paper shim and drop that IHS down onto the CPU (not perfectly zero of course, there is still some NT-H1 CPU TIM there after all) reducing the gap to as close to zero as possible then we get the "c" cases...and the temperatures show the expected fantastic drops we have all come to expect from delidding our Ivy Bridge chips.

Conclusion: The Intel stock CPU TIM is not the reason Ivy Bridge's run hot, and replacing the Intel stock CPU TIM is not the reason a delidded Ivy Bridge runs so much cooler - the benefits of delidding are entirely due to the resultant reduction in gap height between the CPU silicon die and the underside of the IHS
_________________________________

This is also noted, and first discovered, on post # 496
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855&page=20


>>>>> Surprising also was his finding that direct die to HFS did not help to reduce temps as much as he had thought they would.

see #583:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855&page=24
_________________________________
....
The take home message there is replacing the CPU TIM doesn't really provide any benefit. Reducing the gap between the CPU and the IHS does. And removing the IHS entirely doesn't really provide much benefit either.

And that stands to reason. The heat is going to flow through the copper of the IHS the same as it does through the copper of the H100 waterblock.

But if there is a thick pad of thermal paste in the way, as was the case with my 3770k at time of purchase, then it doesn't really matter how good the TIM itself is (unless it too is made of metal) because the mere presence of that thick pad of thermal paste becomes the weakest link in the thermal conductivity equation.

Once you eliminate the bottleneck that is the gap between the IHS and the CPU, or if you happen to end up with an Ivy Bridge CPU which doesn't have much of a gap to begin with (Yuriman ), then you have pretty much optimized the system at that point regardless which CPU TIM of choice you employ and regardless whether or not you leave the IHS in place.

Now the choice of CPU TIM still plays a role in terms of the robustness in maintaining those nice low temperatures. If the so-called "pump out" effect is real then we can expect it to bite us unless we choose a substitute CPU TIM that is designed to avoid such thermo-mechanical effects.

I haven't really got into testing that part out yet, but I expect IC Diamond and the metal TIMs like Liquid Ultra to be key there.
_________________________________
Edited by PCWargamer - 10/7/12 at 11:41pm
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post #144 of 34072
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCWargamer View Post

Very interesting results from a very good delid test of deliding and TIMs on an anandtech forum thread where the OP Idontcare found that the IB temp problem was not from the intell TIM at all, but from the gap between the die and IHS.
- if interested, see post #570 on link below:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855&page=23
_________________________________
And the results?
.....
And if we remove the paper shim and drop that IHS down onto the CPU (not perfectly zero of course, there is still some NT-H1 CPU TIM there after all) reducing the gap to as close to zero as possible then we get the "c" cases...and the temperatures show the expected fantastic drops we have all come to expect from delidding our Ivy Bridge chips.
Conclusion: The Intel stock CPU TIM is not the reason Ivy Bridge's run hot, and replacing the Intel stock CPU TIM is not the reason a delidded Ivy Bridge runs so much cooler - the benefits of delidding are entirely due to the resultant reduction in gap height between the CPU silicon die and the underside of the IHS
_________________________________
This is also noted, and first discovered, on post # 496
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855&page=20
>>>>> Surprising also was his finding that direct die to HFS did not help to reduce temps as much as he had thought they would.
see #583:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855&page=24
_________________________________
....
The take home message there is replacing the CPU TIM doesn't really provide any benefit. Reducing the gap between the CPU and the IHS does. And removing the IHS entirely doesn't really provide much benefit either.
And that stands to reason. The heat is going to flow through the copper of the IHS the same as it does through the copper of the H100 waterblock.
But if there is a thick pad of thermal paste in the way, as was the case with my 3770k at time of purchase, then it doesn't really matter how good the TIM itself is (unless it too is made of metal) because the mere presence of that thick pad of thermal paste becomes the weakest link in the thermal conductivity equation.
Once you eliminate the bottleneck that is the gap between the IHS and the CPU, or if you happen to end up with an Ivy Bridge CPU which doesn't have much of a gap to begin with (Yuriman ), then you have pretty much optimized the system at that point regardless which CPU TIM of choice you employ and regardless whether or not you leave the IHS in place.
Now the choice of CPU TIM still plays a role in terms of the robustness in maintaining those nice low temperatures. If the so-called "pump out" effect is real then we can expect it to bite us unless we choose a substitute CPU TIM that is designed to avoid such thermo-mechanical effects.
I haven't really got into testing that part out yet, but I expect IC Diamond and the metal TIMs like Liquid Ultra to be key there.
_________________________________

adding that! thumb.gif
post #145 of 34072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swag View Post

I've only delidded one soldered CPU in my life and I almost killed it! You have to use a blowtorch! I don't think many people want to go to that type of extreme!

That's some balls right there!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

I delidded an i7 920 by sanding through the entire IHS; leaves a convenient shim around the die, but is extremely labor intensive. Unfortunately I scratched the die later on while relapping it and this scratch eventually grew into a crack that caused failure.
Anyway, with non-soldered IHS, it's much easier to cut them off.

Ouch!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCWargamer View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Very interesting results from a very good delid test of deliding and TIMs on an anandtech forum thread where the OP Idontcare found that the IB temp problem was not from the intell TIM at all, but from the gap between the die and IHS.
- if interested, see post #570 on link below:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855&page=23
_________________________________
And the results?
.....
And if we remove the paper shim and drop that IHS down onto the CPU (not perfectly zero of course, there is still some NT-H1 CPU TIM there after all) reducing the gap to as close to zero as possible then we get the "c" cases...and the temperatures show the expected fantastic drops we have all come to expect from delidding our Ivy Bridge chips.
Conclusion: The Intel stock CPU TIM is not the reason Ivy Bridge's run hot, and replacing the Intel stock CPU TIM is not the reason a delidded Ivy Bridge runs so much cooler - the benefits of delidding are entirely due to the resultant reduction in gap height between the CPU silicon die and the underside of the IHS
_________________________________
This is also noted, and first discovered, on post # 496
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855&page=20
>>>>> Surprising also was his finding that direct die to HFS did not help to reduce temps as much as he had thought they would.
see #583:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855&page=24
_________________________________
....
The take home message there is replacing the CPU TIM doesn't really provide any benefit. Reducing the gap between the CPU and the IHS does. And removing the IHS entirely doesn't really provide much benefit either.
And that stands to reason. The heat is going to flow through the copper of the IHS the same as it does through the copper of the H100 waterblock.
But if there is a thick pad of thermal paste in the way, as was the case with my 3770k at time of purchase, then it doesn't really matter how good the TIM itself is (unless it too is made of metal) because the mere presence of that thick pad of thermal paste becomes the weakest link in the thermal conductivity equation.
Once you eliminate the bottleneck that is the gap between the IHS and the CPU, or if you happen to end up with an Ivy Bridge CPU which doesn't have much of a gap to begin with (Yuriman ), then you have pretty much optimized the system at that point regardless which CPU TIM of choice you employ and regardless whether or not you leave the IHS in place.
Now the choice of CPU TIM still plays a role in terms of the robustness in maintaining those nice low temperatures. If the so-called "pump out" effect is real then we can expect it to bite us unless we choose a substitute CPU TIM that is designed to avoid such thermo-mechanical effects.
I haven't really got into testing that part out yet, but I expect IC Diamond and the metal TIMs like Liquid Ultra to be key there.
_________________________________

That's a great find! That was the post I mentioned earlier, which contained evidence that direct die cooling is not that great compared to delidding and replacing the tim, whilst having the ihs on top.
Perhaps the ultimate setup would be to use a slice of indigo xtreme on the die, remove the black glue altogether, lap the ihs and use another indigo xtreme thermal pad.
Thoughts?
post #146 of 34072
I was always skeptical of it being the TIM itself that was the issue. Intel does not use garbage TIM (it's fairly high end Dow Corning stuff) and even the worst TIM one can imagine should be responsible for double digit temperature increases.

Looks like Intel kept the same substrate/IHS underside gap that they have been using forever, while at the same time reducing die height from ~1mm to about 0.56mm, then they just decided to use gap filler TIM instead of redesigning the IHS.
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post #147 of 34072
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanlabrie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swag View Post

I've only delidded one soldered CPU in my life and I almost killed it! You have to use a blowtorch! I don't think many people want to go to that type of extreme!

That's some balls right there!

This is what you had to do with the old CPUs. frown.gif
You be the judge on how nerve racking that would be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pJ-oXJqJNE
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post #148 of 34072
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanlabrie View Post

That's some balls right there!
Ouch!
That's a great find! That was the post I mentioned earlier, which contained evidence that direct die cooling is not that great compared to delidding and replacing the tim, whilst having the ihs on top.
Perhaps the ultimate setup would be to use a slice of indigo xtreme on the die, remove the black glue altogether, lap the ihs and use another indigo xtreme thermal pad.
Thoughts?

it would be amazing but the skill to get the right amount of indigo xtreme on there would be ridiculous......lol...I just thought of a new product for them....die indigo xtreme....I'd buy it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swag View Post

This is what you had to do with the old CPUs. frown.gif
You be the judge on how nerve racking that would be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pJ-oXJqJNE

bigeyedsmiley.png wow..........
post #149 of 34072
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i7 3770k 5.2ghz  GIGABYTE G1 Assassin Sniper 3 7950 with Alphacool block 7950 w/ Alphacool Block 
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7950 w/ Alphacool block G.SKILL Trident X 2500mhz 2x4gb SanDisk Extreme 240gb sata III 6gbs x5 SwiftTech Apongee Drive II 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
Monsta 360 86mm thick rad X 4 MCP 35X Pump x2 400ML Frozen Q Fusion res x3 Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
CatLeap 2560x1440 + Acer hn274h bmiiid 120hz 3D Logitech G19 Corsair Ax1200 watts  Mountain Mods Ascension 
MouseAudio
Logitech M570 Pioneer SP-BS21 Bookshelf Loudspeakers + Lepai Amp 
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Indigo Xtreme - On die killer edition®

Coming to a store near you! biggrin.gif
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