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[Official] Delidded Club / Guide - Page 726

post #7251 of 33821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swag View Post

Yea, I mostly recommended this because there were some people who were PMing me how many people failed at this mod.

If it's for the purpose of helping others decide whether or not they'd like to risk delidding their chip I don't see how it could be a bad thing thumb.gif.
post #7252 of 33821
yea i dont know if liquid is worth getting if i already have pk-3 ($22 for 1.5g, ouch).

Given how paste application has such a huge impact on performance... im not really sure if CLU is really that much better than PK-3. All I can really find is that PK-1 is just barely behind CLU or P, and PK is vastly superior to PK3. Like I was getting a 3-5*C temp difference with pk-3 over pk-1 over multiple remounts, and this on just a temp range of 40s and 50s, not 70-80s.

I might buy liquid one day but I dont think I'll buy it now. I'm not sold if it'd be much better, or even if it would be better, than pk-3 with the right spread job.
Quote:
Crucial makes fine ram sticks and has great support, but remember they don't scale past 2133 with good timings, 2400mhz with good luck is doable on the 1600c8 sticks. (I've seen it done on 8gb sticks at cl10-10-10-27-1t or something like that using 1.7v soo you might get a decent oc out of those or the 4gbsolder sticks. 2gb sticks not so sure)
you could always buy g.skill 2400c9 sticks or even samsung 1600 cl11 1.35v ram for less.

Im not benching, just running a 24/7 overclock (even if im pushing it, im still staying within limits generally). I dont think any sort of 1600 or 1866mhz kit would get with 2133mhz no matter how much voltage you put on it?

I'm basically buying the cheapest 1.5v CL9 ram I can find. As it turns out, the cheapest 2x2gb RAM i can find are:
Crucial Ballistics @ $8.99 per 2gb stick 1866mhz CL9 1.5v (with the obnoxious tall heatspreaders, black)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148495

and the 2nd cheapest is:
Crucial Ballstics @ $9.99 per 2gb stick 1600mhz CL8 1.5v (with lower profile, LED sticks)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148513

As I understand it, 1866CL9 > 1600CL8, but just barely, as they are basically the same thing (you know, raising speed, lowering timing, same thing, like you could get 1333 CL9 ram to go 2000mhz if you dropped the timings low enough, but i think a step up in speed is slightly harder/more taxing than loosened timing, as I understand it). Probably the same ICs. But I'm okay with $2 price increase for 2x of them, even in the technically slower ram (it's not even slower, it's really the same thing right?) because the god those are some obnoxiously tall heatspreaders and I dont want that. I know you can push up the fan on a heatsink to help with ram spreaders but you can only push the fan up so far until it simply wont fit in the case anymore...
Quote:
you could always buy g.skill 2400c9 sticks or even samsung 1600 cl11 1.35v ram for less.

I think given the sale these crucials are on, I don't think that's likely. I'm literally just trying to get dual channel 4gb 1.5v CL9 (or better, as the case turns out to be) for the cheapest possible. I'm only going with the 2nd cheapest because those heatspreaders seem too obtrusive...
Quote:
AS5 still has a higher w/mk then the stock intel tim, it maybe outdated etc but still isnt that
bad tim compared to the other "newer" ones, you wont notice a very big difference when used on the ihs,
because of the bigger area, even using liquid pro ultra on the ihs, wont make a big difference compared to the other ones out there,
the whole "top15" tim's are within a range of 1-5C when used on the ihs..

AS5 is terrible. It's so outdated. It's truly bad quality paste these days. it was the best when it came out, but it's so terribly inconvenient - not that should deter people like us looking for performance, but nowadays thermal pastes are so high quality that no one is looking to make pastes that are better at dissapating/transferring heat, they're trying to make the paste cheaper, easier to spread, less viscous, less conductive, easier to remove, less conductive. That, or ridiculous, like indigo extreme, ic diamond, coollaboratory.

AS5 is not only difficult to deal with, extremely difficult to deal with, but it's thermal properties are just terrible. I mean no one recommends you should get the i5-655k or 1st generation i5's. They were great when they were released, and in fact they still are pretty powerful.... but compared to the power savings, features, and downright power... not, it really isn't that great anymore. I mean if you got as5, use it, it's not so bad that you should throw it out, but given how cheap paste is, yea, I would recommend you spend $4 for 1.5g of PK-3 (or CLU even). Your gonna see 5*C+ improvement using any modern paste, even something like MX-4, the modern re-iteration of as5.

The only reason as5 is still around is because you have so many anecdotal reports of how great is is, so people searching the subject keep buying it. Meanwhile superior pastes like mx-4 just have less reviews because it hasn't been around as long, so people keep buying as5 and ignoring mx-4 (or pk3, or gc extreme, or even clu...). But performance wise it's bad, and yes, you will see a difference compared to modern pastes. MX-4 will net you a degree or two at least, which is what you generally expect when moving to a higher end thermal paste (short of something like CLU or indigo), and you'll get at least 5*C+ with a high quality paste like PK-3, IC diamond, Gelid extreme, Phobya hegrease, antec, and the many other high end pastes that are still standard performance pastes.

As5 is terrible nowadays. It's 5*C+ behind any modern paste. This is coming from someone who's tested it, and many thermal pastes. Even pk-1 is horribly outdated, and that is consistently ranked better than as5 by the tune of 1-2*C (which is a rather large margin when it comes to TIMs).
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post #7253 of 33821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

I have a hard time believing that (i dont know much about mx-2, but as I understand it, it's worse than MX-4). The last few weeks, I've remounted pastes and done about 20 different thermal paste and heatsink tests, and how much paste you apply and how you apply it can have just as large an impact (or more specifically, adverse affect if you use too much or use the spread method vs small grain of rice or dot method). The best results I've had was like a 5*C drop using PK-3 over PK-2 (which is slightly better than PK-1, which itself seems to generally be above MX-4), while the worst results I had were actually using 2 grains of rice on pk-3 (note that 2 grains of rice was enough paste to barely cover the entire IHS, the best results occurred when the paste didn't completely spread out over the entire IHS).
Also, 10*C drops just by changing thermal paste, when using a performance paste (ie not a stock paste, even something as terrible and outdated as as5; and not including indigo extreme), sounds definitely like a seating problem, than a paste problem.
Now I know the liquids are really high end stuff, but they are still thermal pastes, they aren't like indigo extreme where it's 10*C+ consistently above the 2nd best out there, it's more like phobya hegrease and IC diamond and other compounds that are a bar above high end conventional performance paste. Liquid is definitely better than any other thermal paste, because it's more than just thermal paste, but it isn't going to be responsible for 10*C, at most it's like 1-5*C over the best standard pastes (as in, any sort of 'normal' paste, ie not made of metal and melts stuff and 4x more expensive).
As I understand it, even the stock intel paste is not that bad, and you'd get good results by just delidding, rubbing off that black glue (the true problem and why we delid), and keeping the stock paste instead of replacing it.
I'm sure one day I'll get some liquid, but I think pk-3 and a delid job should be sufficient cooling for a high end, pushing the limit, IB overclock. If not, well then I'll start sweating about a couple degrees (a 3rd fan, using 3x140mms on the nh-d14, better paste, lapping, etc).
Well could be hardware degradation and you simply need to step up voltages to something to make up for it (as in your CPU, your IMC, your RAM, etc), but okay maybe it's your PSU.
Could totally be your PSU, but yea it sounds like something else given what you said. You should try troubleshooting - remove on of those GPUs, stop running AIDA64, see if you can rule something else out before you do something drastic like spend money.

you should try using CLU paste if you haven't done so already ... PK-3 is still within the same Celsius degree as all other "leading" soft TIMs out there, metal or non-metal, meaning it will give you 0.5C difference at best when compared directly to PK-2, PK-1 MX-2, MX-4 or whatever crap they are pushing out nowadays ... I use only IC Diamond or CLU on CPU IHS, really good results when compared to MX-2/MX-4 or PK-3 or whatever (they are all nearly same)...

CLU or CLP is a liquid metal, not a "paste" so to speak. IC Diamond is ... well just that, diamond dust particles (again, not a real "paste"). I utterly hate the PK-3 I bought for $15 from newegg recently, it's an overpriced marketing gimmick, totally not worth the price (if you can get CLU at $12+s/h from sidewindercomputers.com), nothing more.

as for my system, no hardware degradation anywhere under load, so why would there be one at idle? as far as I know anything you mention throws a BSOD or restarts when there is not enough voltage, while my problem is different - a shutdown at long idle and inability to power up until I cycle the rocker switch on PSU which makes me think this is just that, a bad PSU ... or the cursed latest BIOS has got something to do with it.

for now I am not using AIDA64 anymore (was running in background before since a few days) and will see if my rig shuts down when I sleep (it was doing it every night for last 4 days). I will laugh out loud if that is what caused the problem ...
post #7254 of 33821



i can come up with alot of other tests out there,
maybe some are biased idk, like i said, besides the,
its hard to spread out, or hard to work with, prize etc,
theres not much difference, when used on the ihs..


on die its a different story,
and the only stories/tests we have, is what we experienced as delidders around here,
and almost everyone of us has the same story/message,
liquid pro/ultra gives the best results when used on die, most of the time more then 10-15C difference
compared to any other tim out there..
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post #7255 of 33821
LOL! LMAO! I love that comparison! biggrin.gif rep+
They used lipstick, butter, spray oil, toothpaste, mayonnaise and chocolate for comparison, awesome! ... and Rosewill thermal compound was worse than all those (except for chocolate) LOL!

However as per ICD (carat describes only size of syringe, nothing else), it could bean application problem, I personally spread it on the IHS with an old credit card, this way I was always getting around 5-8C better results then with any kind of application of MX-2. not sure why in this review it landed right by mayonnaise LOL!

CLU/CLP is beyond the scope honestly, too much depends on the application method I think since there is a big area to cover (IHS), I personally spread CLU with the included brush and it works great for me, not sure why people say it's not much better than PK-3 (which worked horribly for me on IHS, but worked well on GPU die - same good as CLU).
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post



i can come up with alot of other tests out there,
maybe some are biased idk, like i said, besides the,
its hard to spread out, or hard to work with, prize etc,
theres not much difference, when used on the ihs..
on die its a different story,
and the only stories/tests we have, is what we experienced as delidders around here,
and almost everyone of us has the same story/message,
liquid pro/ultra gives the best results when used on die, most of the time more then 10-15C difference
compared to any other tim out there..

Edited by feniks - 1/4/13 at 11:28pm
post #7256 of 33821
Quote:
Originally Posted by feniks View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

I have a hard time believing that (i dont know much about mx-2, but as I understand it, it's worse than MX-4). The last few weeks, I've remounted pastes and done about 20 different thermal paste and heatsink tests, and how much paste you apply and how you apply it can have just as large an impact (or more specifically, adverse affect if you use too much or use the spread method vs small grain of rice or dot method). The best results I've had was like a 5*C drop using PK-3 over PK-2 (which is slightly better than PK-1, which itself seems to generally be above MX-4), while the worst results I had were actually using 2 grains of rice on pk-3 (note that 2 grains of rice was enough paste to barely cover the entire IHS, the best results occurred when the paste didn't completely spread out over the entire IHS).
Also, 10*C drops just by changing thermal paste, when using a performance paste (ie not a stock paste, even something as terrible and outdated as as5; and not including indigo extreme), sounds definitely like a seating problem, than a paste problem.
Now I know the liquids are really high end stuff, but they are still thermal pastes, they aren't like indigo extreme where it's 10*C+ consistently above the 2nd best out there, it's more like phobya hegrease and IC diamond and other compounds that are a bar above high end conventional performance paste. Liquid is definitely better than any other thermal paste, because it's more than just thermal paste, but it isn't going to be responsible for 10*C, at most it's like 1-5*C over the best standard pastes (as in, any sort of 'normal' paste, ie not made of metal and melts stuff and 4x more expensive).
As I understand it, even the stock intel paste is not that bad, and you'd get good results by just delidding, rubbing off that black glue (the true problem and why we delid), and keeping the stock paste instead of replacing it.
I'm sure one day I'll get some liquid, but I think pk-3 and a delid job should be sufficient cooling for a high end, pushing the limit, IB overclock. If not, well then I'll start sweating about a couple degrees (a 3rd fan, using 3x140mms on the nh-d14, better paste, lapping, etc).
Well could be hardware degradation and you simply need to step up voltages to something to make up for it (as in your CPU, your IMC, your RAM, etc), but okay maybe it's your PSU.
Could totally be your PSU, but yea it sounds like something else given what you said. You should try troubleshooting - remove on of those GPUs, stop running AIDA64, see if you can rule something else out before you do something drastic like spend money.

you should try using CLU paste if you haven't done so already ... PK-3 is still within the same Celsius degree as all other "leading" soft TIMs out there, metal or non-metal, meaning it will give you 0.5C difference at best when compared directly to PK-2, PK-1 MX-2, MX-4 or whatever crap they are pushing out nowadays ... I use only IC Diamond or CLU on CPU IHS, really good results when compared to MX-2/MX-4 or PK-3 or whatever (they are all nearly same)...

CLU or CLP is a liquid metal, not a "paste" so to speak. IC Diamond is ... well just that, diamond dust particles (again, not a real "paste"). I utterly hate the PK-3 I bought for $15 from newegg recently, it's an overpriced marketing gimmick, totally not worth the price (if you can get CLU at $12+s/h from sidewindercomputers.com), nothing more.

as for my system, no hardware degradation anywhere under load, so why would there be one at idle? as far as I know anything you mention throws a BSOD or restarts when there is not enough voltage, while my problem is different - a shutdown at long idle and inability to power up until I cycle the rocker switch on PSU which makes me think this is just that, a bad PSU ... or the cursed latest BIOS has got something to do with it.

for now I am not using AIDA64 anymore (was running in background before since a few days) and will see if my rig shuts down when I sleep (it was doing it every night for last 4 days). I will laugh out loud if that is what caused the problem ...

I have done multiple tests and that is completely not true. I'm not talking about a single mounting here, I'm talking multiple mounts on multiple coolers, I found PK-3 to be above PK1 by about 3-5*C on average. And that's on an AMD chip running 40s and 50's, not an Intel chip running 80+ where heat differentials would be much larger.

There is actually a large difference between the older pastes and newer ones. Anything like Antec, GC extreme, IC diamond, PK-3, MX-4 even, is going to run at least 1-3*C cooler than outdated stuff like PK-1 and AS5 (which is already a few degrees behind PK-1).

pk-3 is not just within a degree of other pastes, and as5 is not just any other paste, nowadays it's just a terrible paste that's behind. There's very few pastes as good as PK-3 (or PK-1, for that matter, and even pk-1 has been surpassed significantly by modern pastes). It, like a select few other pastes, is far ahead of as5. Significantly. I'd say Pk3 would result in a larger cooling drop from as5 or stock paste than the difference between a hyper 212 and most mid-range air coolers or 120mm closed loops.

I'll consider CLU but I'm not sure if it's worth the price premium of $24. I think I'll just use pk-3 and if i need more, I'll get CLU.

Paying $15 for pk-3 is a bit of a rip-off. I got a free sample from prolimatech as a sponsorship for a benchmark, and on ebay you can find plenty of 1.5g and 3.5g tubes for super cheap. I think you can find pk-3, in general, cheaper than newegg... i dont know why people assume newegg is the cheapest for everything.
Quote:
as for my system, no hardware degradation anywhere under load, so why would there be one at idle? as far as I know anything you mention throws a BSOD or restarts when there is not enough voltage, while my problem is different - a shutdown at long idle and inability to power up until I cycle the rocker switch on PSU which makes me think this is just that, a bad PSU ... or the cursed latest BIOS has got something to do with it.

Because of vdroop (im not an expert on intel, please stop asking me lol). You could have some sort of degradation of like your cpu or vrm/motherboard, which would cause voltage not being fed or requested properly or something... who knows what exactly your issue is, but it's definitely possible. It's a common problem that people have overclocking intels, that when the chip goes into idle or sleep it has issues, or it'll run on lower frequencies when it shouldn't, that kind of thing. It's because the voltage might be okay at the high end or on load, but when it idles it's way too low.

Maybe try raising your VID instead of offset, if you are doing so. Could be that when your system isnt on load, or is idling, it's just not getting enough voltage anymore, because of hardware degradation, when a few months ago or whatever, that much idle voltage was fine. Could also be your SLI, or aida64.

I think you should start with troubleshooting (runnign single card, stop using aida), before really asking on a forum (no offense). It'd help us, help you, a lot better.
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post #7257 of 33821
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

1. nervous
2. not confident, (what if)
3. not well prepared
4. working to fast, impatient
5. other reaosns, like socks and spilling fluid over ram etc..
6. using wrong equipment (pocket knife vid) ..lol
7. hmmmm..hmm, that about what comes to my mind smile.gif

To add to that if they practiced on P4's and Celerons and the like is another factor to include for sure! It really boosts your confidence also. smile.gif
 
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post #7258 of 33821
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post




i can come up with alot of other tests out there,
maybe some are biased idk, like i said, besides the,
its hard to spread out, or hard to work with, prize etc,
theres not much difference, when used on the ihs..


on die its a different story,
and the only stories/tests we have, is what we experienced as delidders around here,
and almost everyone of us has the same story/message,
liquid pro/ultra gives the best results when used on die, most of the time more then 10-15C difference
compared to any other tim out there..

I love hardwaresecret's articles, but their benchmarks are total crap. You should know better than to trust a site that puts the Gamer Storm Assassin, consistently ranked as one of the best coolers in the world and OCN's own Moparman ranked as #2 heatsink in the world at stock and #1 in apples to apples, as one of the worst heatsinks in the world (as in 20*C+ behind other dual towers), or that Prolimatech Megahalems, a truly decent hsf for sure, as one of the best heatsinks in the world and better than the NH-D14, Frio, and 20, when it's peformance is consistenyly ranked as very slightly worse than a Corsair H50 at stock.

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Cooler-Master-Hyper-612-PWM-CPU-Cooler-Review/1398/6


Please. I'd trust Tomshardware's benches before Hardwaresecrests. They got great reviews, great articles, really good information on how things work, but their benches are crap. They are like the opposite of Tomshardware, in that sense lol. But their benches are just as wacked out as Frostytech.
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post #7259 of 33821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

I have done multiple tests and that is completely not true. I'm not talking about a single mounting here, I'm talking multiple mounts on multiple coolers, I found PK-3 to be above PK1 by about 3-5*C on average. And that's on an AMD chip running 40s and 50's, not an Intel chip running 80+ where heat differentials would be much larger.
There is actually a large difference between the older pastes and newer ones. Anything like Antec, GC extreme, IC diamond, PK-3, MX-4 even, is going to run at least 1-3*C cooler than outdated stuff like PK-1 and AS5 (which is already a few degrees behind PK-1).
pk-3 is not just within a degree of other pastes, and as5 is not just any other paste, nowadays it's just a terrible paste that's behind. There's very few pastes as good as PK-3 (or PK-1, for that matter, and even pk-1 has been surpassed significantly by modern pastes). It, like a select few other pastes, is far ahead of as5. Significantly. I'd say Pk3 would result in a larger cooling drop from as5 or stock paste than the difference between a hyper 212 and most mid-range air coolers or 120mm closed loops.
I'll consider CLU but I'm not sure if it's worth the price premium of $24. I think I'll just use pk-3 and if i need more, I'll get CLU.
Paying $15 for pk-3 is a bit of a rip-off. I got a free sample from prolimatech as a sponsorship for a benchmark, and on ebay you can find plenty of 1.5g and 3.5g tubes for super cheap. I think you can find pk-3, in general, cheaper than newegg... i dont know why people assume newegg is the cheapest for everything.
Because of vdroop (im not an expert on intel, please stop asking me lol). You could have some sort of degradation of like your cpu or vrm/motherboard, which would cause voltage not being fed or requested properly or something... who knows what exactly your issue is, but it's definitely possible. It's a common problem that people have overclocking intels, that when the chip goes into idle or sleep it has issues, or it'll run on lower frequencies when it shouldn't, that kind of thing. It's because the voltage might be okay at the high end or on load, but when it idles it's way too low.
Maybe try raising your VID instead of offset, if you are doing so. Could be that when your system isnt on load, or is idling, it's just not getting enough voltage anymore, because of hardware degradation, when a few months ago or whatever, that much idle voltage was fine. Could also be your SLI, or aida64.
I think you should start with troubleshooting (runnign single card, stop using aida), before really asking on a forum (no offense). It'd help us, help you, a lot better.

I won't comment on TIM anymore, your findings are yours, mine are mine for my equipment and conditions I tested it with. to each its own smile.gif
just try CLU on the die and you won't regret it as nobody among us ever did.... god, never met anybody so hard to convince ... have you seen the first page of this thread with deliding results (there is TIM used in it) ... be my guest to try PK-3, post back with your findings ... then compare with CLU or CLP...

buddy please .... what you say about my problem doesn't make the slightest sense in scope of what I already have said smile.gif

too low vcore om Intel chips (be it idle or under load) would cause a BSOD (e.g. 101, 124, or whatever) and would RESTART, it wouldn't shutdown without ability to power back up! been there done that for a few years LOL! this system was perfectly stable for a month (it runs 24/7) and CPU is not a problem, it's stable, really he he.
The rest is a testing in progress. SLI I doubt is the case at idle (it would be under load however, but it's not)... PSU or BIOS or MB, those are really only options if it wasn't a software glitch caused by AIDA64 (testing this theory since afternoon) wink.gif

And lastly, I never asked for YOUR advice personally in this thread, not sure why you are bashing me by repeating the stuff (that I myself mentioned in initial post) over and over LOL for a simple question targeted to ALL CLUB MEMBERS (knowing most of us are experienced in many different fields)!
Edited by feniks - 1/4/13 at 11:41pm
post #7260 of 33821
Quote:
LOL! LMAO! I love that comparison!
They used lipstick, butter, spray oil, toothpaste, mayonnaise and chocolate for comparison, awesome! ... and Rosewill thermal compound was worse than all those (except for chocolate) LOL!

However as per ICD (carat describes only size of syringe, nothing else), it could bean application problem, I personally spread it on the IHS with an old credit card, this way I was always getting around 5-8C better results then with any kind of application of MX-2. not sure why in this review it landed right by mayonnaise LOL!

CLU/CLP is beyond the scope honestly, too much depends on the application method I think since there is a big area to cover (IHS), I personally spread CLU with the included brush and it works great for me, not sure why people say it's not much better than PK-3 (which worked horribly for me on IHS, but worked well on GPU die - same good as CLU).

Also, they test full load on stock voltage. That's a useless test.

You do realize that idle temps mean nothing, right? In the same sense, stock voltage means nothing too. Custom water loops will lose to HDT heatsinks, according to testing methodologies used by HardwareSecrets (Hdt is really, really good at idle temps and lower temp ranges and cheap as crap but are terrible for performance, although their performance/price is awesome, hence, hyper 212, and water loops are worse at idle and lower temp ranges).

They also do not control ambient temps. A change of 1*C in ambient temp is very likely going to be responsible for at least 2-5*C change in load temps (depending on the heat delta, of course), due to the exponential relationship of increased ambient temp on increased load temp.

Also... why is a benchmark published by a manufacturer being used? lol, you realize that's not exactly an unbiased article, right? Although it is correct that as5 is crap and icdiamond is much much better than it (and to be fair that was a sampling, not a test). I'm not sure why you quoted that though, unless you are saying that to agree with me that as5 is terrible?

Anyways, spread method is terrible. That's why you had such a problem. Spreading causes air bubbles to pop up when you put on the heatsink. That's what glass plate pressure applications have shown (its on youtube somewhere). Maybe that isn't the reason exactly, maybe it is, I just know in my tests, and other's tests, you tend to get way higher temps with spread instead of dot application. In my experience, I've had the best results when the TIM didn't even spread out to reach the entire IHS, you just need a small dot in the middle, and smooshed down so it spreads out and no air can get trapped in it.

I wonder how well CLU would work if you just applied it like normal paste, with rice grain/dot method. I know it is a bit different, i mean considering it's just freaking metal...
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