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post #9101 of 33389
Quote:
Originally Posted by King4x4 View Post

Pfft....I love liquid cooling of any kind... makes the liquid as medium so what it's temperature difference rises between it and the air (it heats up) the radiator cooling increases so if your system is like 3'C delta you can downturn the fans to like 50% of their speeds and you gonna get an 8'C delta and everything is still being cooled nicely... I love water biggrin.gif

By the ways guys... anybody with crossfire setups SHOULD GO TO ATI DRIVERS AND DOWNLOAD THE LEAKED 13.2 BETAS OH MY GOD THEY ARE AWESOME!

Caps intended to prove a point.

yea, i saw those somewhere yesterday. you running them now ?
whats better in those?
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post #9102 of 33389
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

Again with the snide comments, that's okay. I make perfectly clear in the review that I'm testing on the IHS, not on die, and in the post I specifically state that on-die is different than IHS, and that most likely, differences in thermal paste performance would be exaggerated when put on-die (vs standard IHS).

I have checked many review sites. Not a single site shows a difference between Ultra vs Pro, but for the most part, very few sites have even reviewed either CLU/CLP.

They are all NOT within 2-6*C range of eachother, including AS5. You are most likely looking at outdated benches from years ago. 10 years ago,
all pastes were within 2-6*C of AS5, on the IHS, yes. Today, all high end pastes are within 2-6*C, sure - Gelic GC Extreme, NH-T1, PK-3, Shin Etsu.

However, all of today's high end pastes, are likely going to be 5-10*C+ over pastes like AS5.

Not to mention, AS5 was a terrible paste 5 years ago when most benchmarks were done (i mean, most are around 5-2 years old it seems).

Those are also the results of my own test. I found, consistently, in my testing, that PK-3 was 5*C better than PK-1. Which, consistently, is about 2-3*C better than AS5. You can do the math to figure out the difference between PK-3 and AS5. You can also probably do the math and figure out how AS5 compares to CLU/CLP, which are not conventional thermal pastes, but more in the line of Phobya Hegrease, IC Diamond, and Indigo Extreme - they are thermal 'applicants' of a different nature. Most basically, they are not ceramic based, and they are significantly higher in price (considering about 99% of pastes are under $10 for 5g, $8 for 3.5g, and $5 for 1.5g), and generally much more difficult to apply.

My results are hardly authoritative, but I'd bet money that AS5 is at least 10*C worse than CLU/CLP, especially when put on-die. Yes, 1-3*C is a huge deal of difference when it comes to thermal pastes. You'd be hard pressed to find 1-3*C difference in modern pastes - nh-t1, gelid, hegrease even, pk2, pk3, mx-4, even clu/clp are close within that range on IHS applications. But AS5 is such a terrible thermal paste, being over a decade old after all, that it's much more than 5*C worse than modern pastes. That's how terrible it is, that stock paste performs better than it these days.

As I said before - look at how much CPUs and GPUs have evolved in the last 13 years. TIM has evolved just as much.

This thread moves insanely fast, but to the person using AS5 - get a modern paste (it'd be a great chance for you to get CLU/CLP right now, but any modern paste would be fine, you can get something like 1.5g of pk3 or masscool for under $4 shipped on ebay). You'll have significant temp drops, a more dramati temp drop using a good thermal paste, than if you switch from a hyper 212 to a 120mm closed loop/mid range cooler, or even something like an H60 vs nh-d14. It's not that getting a thermal paste will provide a dramatic drop in temps, it's that switching from a terrible paste like AS5 to a half decent one, would provide a dramatic drop in temps.

I'd bet money that the stock intel paste on the IHS is better than AS5.

snide..right, not sure what it means, but how can i even start to respond to a post that has this in only 1 alinea,
besides the as5 reviews are outdated, as you think, it isnt a bad tim , as you make it out to be,
and you havent tested it in your own review, you only say its bad, its outdated, thats all, your own opinion,

you bet money, yea..but its the same thing i already say a long time if we talk about what tim to use on the die,
i know the difference from experience, like others here do too..

using AS5 on the die


using Liquid Pro on die


25C temp difference,
liquid pro beats any other tim, when used on the die,
the difference between ultra and pro arent that big, even tho theres a (big) difference in w/mk,
of which i think, there a kinda of a upperlimit with w/mk used on die,
pro's w/mk is 82w/mk, but i dont think a 150w/mk tim will give double the temp drop if compared, and if there was a tim like that,
from 30-40 w/mk and higher, the temp differences will get less..

intels tim has a lower w/mk then as5, i went to trouble once to find out what the w/mk was on intels tim,
if i remember right, it has about 2-3w/mk, artic silver 5 has a 8.7 w/m.k , which is not bad at all

RIght... we're in agreement dude. CLU/CLP will be significantly better than AS5, especially on-die.

My review was only of PK1/PK2/PK3, but given the wealth of (outdated) benches done out there, like Skinnee's, I think it's fair to extrapolate that given PK-1 is ~1-4*C better than AS5 (as you pointed out, a huge difference when it comes to TIMs), and PK-3 is 5*C+ getter than PK-1, that CLU/CLP 5-10*C+ over AS5, especially on-die when TIM differences become exaggerated.

It's pretty commonly cited that PK-1 is a degree or few ahead of AS5, but nowadays you have a handful of ceramique pastes significantly ahead of PK-1. Given how 'bad' even PK-1 is compared to a modern paste like PK-3, it's not an unfair judgement to say AS5 is simply a terrible paste nowadays.

And I do have experience with AS5, actually. I just didn't cite it in the review I did. The tests I did in my review were remounted at least 3+ times each, but for the sake of integrity, I stated I only did them once, with a 2*C spread. I believe the results are accurate within a degree (I'd remount the same paste and get the exact same results, and then try a different paste, and get that same 2*C, or 5*C, or whatever, difference, very consistently, quite surprising actually since spread method can be a big factor but the conclusion I drew was that as long as you use around the right amount, you are good, and you don't spread it, and that it's very hard to use too little paste). I only mounted AS5 once, and it was a small bit someone used for me.

CLU/CLP isn't a ceramique based paste either, it's more in the league of indigo extreme or ic diamond than pk-3, as5, mx-4, etc, ie extremely expensive. It's $22+ for 1.5g, which is less than $5 for any standard paste.

Unless someone tests them, it would be pure conjecture to say one is better than the other. But it's pretty obvious to say that a 13 year old tim is horrible these days. No one says a pentium4 is a good cpu anymore. It may have been good at the time, but not anymore.
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post #9103 of 33389
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

dang, its a, lets pick on VonDutch day ...lol

you are all right, AS5 is bad, and 1.52V max vcore, is not correct either,
i leave it to others to decide whats best for them, and what the limits are,
i will keep on using the numbers i gathered so far tho,
if asked whats the best tim to use on die, or what is the max "safe" vcore for ivy, 1.3-1.45V vcore for me,
i think 95% of the users will agree.. for people personally, you can use 1.55V 24/7, upto you smile.gif
theres a difference between Max vcore, and recommended or safe vcore..

so, hokies, how did you get that 1.55V vcore?
pls provide any kind of other proof..
or are you also only using/quoting the number Sin0822 suggests in his graph?

You have no proof.

Somebody who runs a 1.8v to get a cpu screenie scared to run Vcore kinda seems dumb to me.

Proof nobody has reported degrading yet. And i been around ALOT longer then you wink.gif been doing this a LONG time wink.gif
    
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post #9104 of 33389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokies83 View Post

You have no proof.

Somebody who runs a 1.8v to get a cpu screenie scared to run Vcore kinda seems dumb to me.

Proof nobody has reported degrading yet. And i been around ALOT longer then you wink.gif been doing this a LONG time wink.gif

so, because your around longer then me, you are right?
maybe cause im new, i have other insight hehe biggrin.gif

this is exactly what i say, you have no proof,. and i have no real proof,
im using numbers of people who know their stuff, who did testing etc,
i know im a noob compared to others here..

youre are right tho, about the degradation part, noone can say for sure,
ivy hasnt been running that long, but that i mentioned also in earlier posts smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

RIght... we're in agreement dude. CLU/CLP will be significantly better than AS5, especially on-die.

My review was only of PK1/PK2/PK3, but given the wealth of (outdated) benches done out there, like Skinnee's, I think it's fair to extrapolate that given PK-1 is ~1-4*C better than AS5 (as you pointed out, a huge difference when it comes to TIMs), and PK-3 is 5*C+ getter than PK-1, that CLU/CLP 5-10*C+ over AS5, especially on-die when TIM differences become exaggerated.

It's pretty commonly cited that PK-1 is a degree or few ahead of AS5, but nowadays you have a handful of ceramique pastes significantly ahead of PK-1. Given how 'bad' even PK-1 is compared to a modern paste like PK-3, it's not an unfair judgement to say AS5 is simply a terrible paste nowadays.

And I do have experience with AS5, actually. I just didn't cite it in the review I did. The tests I did in my review were remounted at least 3+ times each, but for the sake of integrity, I stated I only did them once, with a 2*C spread. I believe the results are accurate within a degree (I'd remount the same paste and get the exact same results, and then try a different paste, and get that same 2*C, or 5*C, or whatever, difference, very consistently, quite surprising actually since spread method can be a big factor but the conclusion I drew was that as long as you use around the right amount, you are good, and you don't spread it, and that it's very hard to use too little paste). I only mounted AS5 once, and it was a small bit someone used for me.

CLU/CLP isn't a ceramique based paste either, it's more in the league of indigo extreme or ic diamond than pk-3, as5, mx-4, etc, ie extremely expensive. It's $22+ for 1.5g, which is less than $5 for any standard paste.

Unless someone tests them, it would be pure conjecture to say one is better than the other. But it's pretty obvious to say that a 13 year old tim is horrible these days. No one says a pentium4 is a good cpu anymore. It may have been good at the time, but not anymore.

i thought that day would never come ...LOL
thanks wink.gif
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post #9105 of 33389
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

so, because your around longer then me, you are right?
maybe cause im new, i have other insight hehe biggrin.gif

this is exactly what i say, you have no proof,. and i have no real proof,
im using numbers of people who know their stuff, who did testing etc,
i know im a noob compared to others here..

youre are right tho, about the degradation part, noone can say for sure,
ivy hasnt been running that long, but that i mentioned also in earlier posts smile.gif
i thought that day would never come ...LOL
thanks wink.gif

Im using numbers of Sin and my Own 18 years of Exp And the 8 forums im a member of with zero reports of degrading.

Your 24/7 OC i see no point of de lidding.

I do not have to copy paste everything and post it in this thread 500 times to prove what i already know.
    
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post #9106 of 33389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokies83 View Post

Im using numbers of Sin and my Own 18 years of Exp And the 8 forums im a member of with zero reports of degrading.

Your 24/7 OC i see no point of de lidding.

I do not have to copy paste everything and post it in this thread 500 times to prove what i already know.

my daily 4.8ghz at 1.420V vcore isnt worth delidding my chip for?

24H prime stable, hottest cores 76C

i couldnt even run 4.5ghz before delid..thats why i delidded..
i still dont see what the difference in years experience has to do with anything regarding max vcore, and safe max vcore smile.gif
its your word, where you claim, "i run my ivy at 1.,55V vcore for months" and using 1 man's graph to be the whole truth..
against my word, saying, safe vcore for ivy would be the 1.3-1.45V, max vcore 1.52V vcore on air/water,
using the same graph in Sin0822 guide..and what others consider to be the max vcore, in regard to the VID range,
sin states that too, and the intel data sheets say/show the same thing


Edited by VonDutch - 1/20/13 at 2:28am
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post #9107 of 33389
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

my 4.8ghz at 1.420V vcore isnt worth delidding my chip for?,

24H prime stable, hottest cores 76C

i couldnt even run 4.5ghz before delid..thats why i delidded..
i still dont see what the difference in years experience has to do with anything regarding max vcore, and safe max vcore smile.gif
its your word, where you claim, "i run my ivy at 1.,55V vcore for months" and using 1 man's graph to be the whole truth..
against my word, saying, safe vcore for ivy would be the 1.3-1.45V, max vcore 1.52V vcore on air/water,
using the same graph in Sin0822 guide..and what others consider to be the max vcore, in regard to the VID range,
sin states that too, and the intel data sheets say/show the same thing


Jesus dude quit with your copy pastes of somebody elses info..

You do not know jack and squat about V core.

Keep on posting that Vid range crap is just making you look dumb bro for real.

I suggest you go to Xtreme Systems or Anandtech and learn a little.. posting that stuff i just chuckle at you.
Edited by Hokies83 - 1/20/13 at 2:29am
    
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CatLeap 2560x1440 + Acer hn274h bmiiid 120hz 3D Logitech G19 Corsair Ax1200 watts  Mountain Mods Ascension 
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post #9108 of 33389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokies83 View Post

Jesus dude quit with your copy pastes of somebody elses info..

You do not know jack and squat about V core.

Keep on posting that Vid range crap is just making you look dumb bro for real.

I suggest you go to Xtreme ZSystems or Anandtech and learn a little.. posting that stuff i just chuckle at you.

well, sorry for being dumb then,
i shut it now....
BamBam
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Pebbles
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amd 8350 my kids rig :) Gigabyte 990fxa-ud3 Gigabyte 7970 windforce Corsair Vengeance CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9 
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500gb OZC vertex 4  Scythe Mugen 3 rev b windows 8.1 
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acer 23 inch logitech G510 XFX ProSeries 750W XXX Edition Cooler Master CM 690 II 
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BamBam
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Pebbles
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amd 8350 my kids rig :) Gigabyte 990fxa-ud3 Gigabyte 7970 windforce Corsair Vengeance CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9 
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500gb OZC vertex 4  Scythe Mugen 3 rev b windows 8.1 
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acer 23 inch logitech G510 XFX ProSeries 750W XXX Edition Cooler Master CM 690 II 
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post #9109 of 33389
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

yea, i saw those somewhere yesterday. you running them now ?
whats better in those?

Gameplay is very smooth on most of the games I play (BF3 and Far Cry 3 <== This one night and day difference) and I gained another 50mhz on my OCs.

Not to mention that trifire is going to +90% in BF3.

In addition game profiles got an update in 13.2 when compared to 13.1:

3dMark Vantage (cfx)
Battle Forge (cfx)
Aliens Vs Predator (cfx)
Lost Planet 2 (cfx)
F1 2012 (cfx)
3DMark 11 (cfx)
Crysis 2 (cfx)
Battlefield 3 (cfx)
Dirt Showdown (cfx)
Crysis 3 (unreleased)
Medal of Honor: Warfighter (cfx)
Tomb Raider (unreleased)
Nexuiz (cfx)
Blacklight: Retribution (cfx)
FarCry 3 (single card)
Skyrim (cfx & single card)
GuildWars 2 (cfx & single card)
Borderlands 2 (cfx & single card)
Rise of the Triad (unreleased)
Hydra
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Intel i7 3930k @4.4ghz@1.44v Asrock X79 Fataility Champion 3xInno3d GTX 780 with Full Nickel EK Waterblocks Gskill RipjawsX 4x4GB@2400mhz 11-11-11-31 
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Samsung 840 500GB EK Supramacy 4x EK Blocks 6x EK XTX480 
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EK XT360 Windows 8.1 BenQ 3201 32in 4k IPS Qnix 32in 1440 MVA 
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Hydra
(13 items)
 
Hydra 2
(23 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 3930k @4.4ghz@1.44v Asrock X79 Fataility Champion 3xInno3d GTX 780 with Full Nickel EK Waterblocks Gskill RipjawsX 4x4GB@2400mhz 11-11-11-31 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorKeyboard
2xSamsung 830 256gb Custom H2O - 3x XSPC RX360 with EK Blocks Surround Gaming 3x1440@96hz (X-Star) Cooler Master Trigger Red Caps 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Seasonic 1250 watt Danger Den Double Wide 21 Roccat Kone+ Creative ZX (Incoming) 
Audio
Roccat Kave 5.1 Headphones 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
4930k Asus Extreme Black Edition Sapphire R9 290x Sapphire R9 290x 
GraphicsGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Sapphire R9 290x Sapphire R9 290x Gskil TridentX 2400mhz Samsung 830 256GB 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 840 500GB EK Supramacy 4x EK Blocks 6x EK XTX480 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
EK XT360 Windows 8.1 BenQ 3201 32in 4k IPS Qnix 32in 1440 MVA 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Qnix 32in 1440 MVA Coolermaster Storm Trigger 2x Seasonic 1250watt Case Labs TH10 
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post #9110 of 33389
Sorry if this will sound like a "mod" way or anything like that but can we stop it right there? I don't want this tense feeling belonging in this club. I know it is a quarrel that 2 people can go on and on about saying one thing or the other but please limit it.

I'm saying this purely to save this club from looking like PoS that doesn't deserve any recognition or worse, recognized as a horrible club. I won't be picking sides on this fight either.
Swag's Venus
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i5 3570k @ 4.8GHz Asus Maximus V Gene EVGA GTX 680 G.Skill RipJaws X 16GB (2x8GB) 
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Dell U2713HM Crossover 27Q (3x) Ducky TKL OCN-Version Corsair AX650 
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Swag's Venus
(18 items)
 
  
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i5 3570k @ 4.8GHz Asus Maximus V Gene EVGA GTX 680 G.Skill RipJaws X 16GB (2x8GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 830 Crucial M4 Corsair H100i Windows 7 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
Dell U2713HM Crossover 27Q (3x) Ducky TKL OCN-Version Corsair AX650 
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